JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
You spat John Daly all over her iPad? :clap:
Room For One More?
- Thread starter jimbob.someroo
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You spat John Daly all over her iPad? :clap:
SamQuirkePGA
Club Champion
Bob,
Andy and Mike did not set out to make a name for themselves in golf, the success they enjoy is as a result of many players enjoying
improvements in their swings and thus making more money on tour and then golf digest taking an interest and doing the article.
The 'Stack and Tilt' brand was not a name A & M branded themselves with this was assigned to them.
Yes the new DVD is $150.
This DVD goes into far more detail than the first with classification and clarification from Trackman, 3D motion analysis and force plate data.
I intend to give golfers advice when asked for and please do speak up if you don't agree, I'd encourage you to do so.
All I'd ask for is an explanation as to why you don't agree.
To use the right knee flex as an example, in an earlier post you state you could put together a catalogue of players maintaining their original knee flex, I'd be interested to see that.
I'll say this:
The golfer benefits losing flex in the trail leg to allow the hips to turn on a tilted angle and ultimately have the spine go from flexion (spine still curved) to extension (spine straight)
If the golfer maintains the original knee flex they are likely to turn in flexion and not have enough degree of freedom for the left shoulder (centre of rotation) to move in front of the sternum (centre of the swing) (from the face on / caddie view).
The golfer maintaining the trail leg knee bend will experience a reduced shoulder turn and not realise his/hers potential in distance or worse compromise the stability of the centre and therefore the point at which the club hits the ground (low point), ultimately suffering with fat shots and then thin shots to avoid the fat ones!
I'm sure you have spent the last 45 years playing golf to a high standard, the stuff, as you put it being written about today is not new information. To use a player you referred to earlier, Nicklaus,
" I don't believe in a lateral shift, of course not, I believe in staying on the ball"
Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers,
"They don't know how to play"
Sam
Andy and Mike did not set out to make a name for themselves in golf, the success they enjoy is as a result of many players enjoying
improvements in their swings and thus making more money on tour and then golf digest taking an interest and doing the article.
The 'Stack and Tilt' brand was not a name A & M branded themselves with this was assigned to them.
Yes the new DVD is $150.
This DVD goes into far more detail than the first with classification and clarification from Trackman, 3D motion analysis and force plate data.
I intend to give golfers advice when asked for and please do speak up if you don't agree, I'd encourage you to do so.
All I'd ask for is an explanation as to why you don't agree.
To use the right knee flex as an example, in an earlier post you state you could put together a catalogue of players maintaining their original knee flex, I'd be interested to see that.
I'll say this:
The golfer benefits losing flex in the trail leg to allow the hips to turn on a tilted angle and ultimately have the spine go from flexion (spine still curved) to extension (spine straight)
If the golfer maintains the original knee flex they are likely to turn in flexion and not have enough degree of freedom for the left shoulder (centre of rotation) to move in front of the sternum (centre of the swing) (from the face on / caddie view).
The golfer maintaining the trail leg knee bend will experience a reduced shoulder turn and not realise his/hers potential in distance or worse compromise the stability of the centre and therefore the point at which the club hits the ground (low point), ultimately suffering with fat shots and then thin shots to avoid the fat ones!
I'm sure you have spent the last 45 years playing golf to a high standard, the stuff, as you put it being written about today is not new information. To use a player you referred to earlier, Nicklaus,
" I don't believe in a lateral shift, of course not, I believe in staying on the ball"
Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers,
"They don't know how to play"
Sam
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
Ooooo look who's on form today
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Does anybody want to buy a Garmin S1?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Wow! This has been an entertaining read!
I thought it was an offer of a round of golf, that I don't have time for at the mo.
JimBob. S&T may or may not be your path to better golf, so good luck finding out.
Certainly seems a nice swing in the vids, if a tad more leg action than I would expect. The de-flexed right leg seems fundamental to the S&T way and - as pointed out and does help 'non S&T' players to 'stay centred'.
My advice (FWIW) would be that if you want to incorporate elements (only) of S&T, then listen to Sam and/or JO.
Bob's advice re practicing the short game is great though.
Bob, Try something different ... .... ..... ..... .... Argentinian Malbec!
I thought it was an offer of a round of golf, that I don't have time for at the mo.
JimBob. S&T may or may not be your path to better golf, so good luck finding out.
Certainly seems a nice swing in the vids, if a tad more leg action than I would expect. The de-flexed right leg seems fundamental to the S&T way and - as pointed out and does help 'non S&T' players to 'stay centred'.
My advice (FWIW) would be that if you want to incorporate elements (only) of S&T, then listen to Sam and/or JO.
Bob's advice re practicing the short game is great though.
Bob, Try something different ... .... ..... ..... .... Argentinian Malbec!
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bobmac
Major Champion
I've just spent ages writing a detailed reply with pictures and everything and then lost it :angry:
So, instead of writing it all out again I shall summarise...
For those of you who want to try the S&T system....
So, start with the weight favouring the left side, swing back on the inside, tilting the shoulders down towards the ball and straighten out your right leg moving your weight forward all the time. Then, don't throw at the top (which is what most handicapped golfers would do with that backswing), instead, slide the hips even further towards the target keeping the club approaching the ball from the inside, then move even more weight forward keeping the upper centre back and swing through into a curtailed follow through... oh and dont forget, dont release your hands.
Now wonder it took James 5 hours to teach Oddsox that lot.
My advice.....
Keep the head still, stay centred and turn better.
So, instead of writing it all out again I shall summarise...
For those of you who want to try the S&T system....
So, start with the weight favouring the left side, swing back on the inside, tilting the shoulders down towards the ball and straighten out your right leg moving your weight forward all the time. Then, don't throw at the top (which is what most handicapped golfers would do with that backswing), instead, slide the hips even further towards the target keeping the club approaching the ball from the inside, then move even more weight forward keeping the upper centre back and swing through into a curtailed follow through... oh and dont forget, dont release your hands.
Now wonder it took James 5 hours to teach Oddsox that lot.
My advice.....
Keep the head still, stay centred and turn better.
bobmac
Major Champion
Doesn't he play for Chelsea?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Isn't this the worst piece of advice possible?
How did David Duval and Annika Sorenstam get to World #1s with a huge mount of head movement!
In fact,can you name anybody who keeps their head still during the entire swing? I don't believe it's possible!
How about 'Keep the head under control'?
Stay Centred and Turn Better sound fine, Somewhat lacking on detail perhaps though.
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bobmac
Major Champion
I think people talk about keeping the head DOWN is bad advice
I should have added...
Keep the head still on the backswing.
bobmac
Major Champion
How much detail do you need in your head when turning back and through?
If the OP wants to swing the club back on the inside while keeping his right leg straight, pointing his right forearm down to the ground and keeping more height through impact, good luck to him.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
IMO the advice on losing flex in the right leg is OK for S&T but bad in a conventional swing. The pictures given with golfers having straightened right legs in the backswing are misleading; The left knees are turning back and flexing which gives an illusion of the right knee being straighter. You need to compare the right knee to it's address position to make a true evaluation. In a more traditional swing loosing flex in the right knee will assist in creating a reverse pivot which is not good at all, it leads to the dropping the left shoulder and blocks the free swing of the arms, also the ability to rotate the body. Check out what Ben Hogan says about in in 5 Lessons.
Foxholer
Blackballed
@SR Are you saying that you can't be absolutely certain of what has gone on before the 'frame' of a still pic?!
Sounds a familiar comment! As a major (main?) function of the stiffened right leg is to act as a brace to prevent the weight shifting (from the centre), then I'd whole-heartedly agree!
Does seem to me that while there are very many 'traditional' (weight shift) swings - every player having slightly different characteristics - there appears, to me at least, only 1 way (or at least a very limited number of ways) to be proper S&T. It seems to me that over a period of time this will change so that the 'elements that work for me/you' approach will happen and a S&T style will evolve from the pure method.
Bob. Surely, the head is facing DOWN at address, so if, as you are advocating, you keep it still on the backswing, you are also advocating keeping it DOWN on the backswing. Of course, this raises more questions (more than it answers?
). Do you therefore think it's then ok to move the head about on the downswing! And just exactly what do you mean by 'still'? Is it still relative to the ground - if so how do you actually perform the weight transfer (into the right instep)? If it's still relative to the body's centre of gravity then, as the centre of gravity moves, THE HEAD MUST MOVE - albeit in a controlled way! And that's only relating to the 'x-axis' (hirizontal) movement. There's a 'y-axis' (vertical) involved as well! I think we can agree that z-axis head movement can seriously screw up balance!
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JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Very, very, very interesting Bob....... why not explain to everyone HOW to do that?
As far as I can tell if you keep your head still on your backswing you are either going to be...
a) reverse pivoting (if shifting weight to the right whilst trying to keep your head still over the ball)
b) somewhat stacked (if not shifting weight)
So seeing as you deplore S&T you must be advocating a reverse pivot? I'm sure you're not doing that... are you?
I can't imagine that you'd knowingly suggest to people that they reverse pivot so they must therefore be stacked somewhat over the ball.
So that's the weight shift part of the swing sorted... there can't be one if you keep your head still as you suggest.
So now we establish that there is no weight shift we need to figure out how the shoulders are going to turn. In order for the head to remain still (as you suggest) you must come out of the flexion at address (forward bend) into a side tilt at the top of the backswing...else your head would move to the right.. would it not?
So therefore for the head to remain still they must have tilted.... sounds very much like erm,... stack and tilt to me.
Like I said, feel free to explain how you suggest people swing whilst maintaining a still head in the backswing because at the moment it appears to me to be impossible if you don't remain stacked... and tilted.
I'd love to know more about this centered swing that you've started suggesting everyone use, that isn't stacked or tilted.... and keeps the head still........ sounds awesome!
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bobmac
Major Champion
As I understand, reverse pivot is when you move the weight forward on the backswing (hmmmm) and back onto your back foot on the downswing. The word 'reverse' is the clue.
As for stacked, there's a big difference between being stacked on your left side and staying centred.
Can you find any quotes from me saying you should load up the right side. I've always talked about staying centred when I give advice on here.
Where did I say they didn't ?
If you stay in the same posture during the backswing your shoulders will tilt, they have to as your upper body is tilted forward, just not as far down as some would suggest.
So, if you want to keep your head still, you have to be stacked? So how do you move the weight forward and keep the head still without a severe tilt of the spine away from the target. And people wonder why S&T gives them a bad back.
Yeup, I started telling people to do this in the late 70s the difference is I wasn't telling them to start with their weight on the left side and move it more left throughout the whole swing
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JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Not really 55/45 as opposed to 50/50 isn't a big difference - your advocating being stacked but just a fraction more central
Ok, so that's a yes to the tilt.....
Not quite getting what your radical new swing is if it isn't somewhat stacked and somewhat tilted..... pretty rich from someone who vehemently abhors the stack and tilt swing
It sounds to me like you're pretty much making it up as you go along.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
@SR Are you saying that you can't be absolutely certain of what has gone on before the 'frame' of a still pic?!
@FH Are you suggesting I have previously said that you cant be absolutely certain of what has gone before the 'frame' of a still pic?! I think you may be mixing me up with someone else there
Foxholer
Blackballed
H'mm. That's not what I believe is the fundamental nature of the term, but maybe an effect of the RP - that then cuses ll sorts of other issues..
In the (W/T) backswing, the spine should angle - pivot - slightly away from the target, moving the weight slightly onto the right side. Th Reverse Pivot is when the spine is angled towards the target.
bobmac
Major Champion
So the people who teach S&T who START the swing at 45/55 favouring the left side then move the weight forward even more are wrong?
Not for everyone
It's not radical, it's new and it's not my creation
There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I've never said that or anything close. I just say I wouldn't teach it.
Nope. Just repeating what I've been saying for the last 40 years
jimbob.someroo
Journeyman Pro
Well this all got a bit heated didn't it!
Firstly I want to say thanks to everyone who's offered up advice. It is greatly appreciated.
Secondly, just wanted to throw in my two cents on the whole 'disagreement' I've played for a few years now getting down to six before stopping for a while. Since I've started again I've been woefully inconsistent hence looking for a few ways of getting a more regular swing. I'm not saying s&t is the answer for me, I actually don't think it is. But there are a few elements which seemed to have helped.
I've always had a pretty active lower half (wayyyyohhh!) and I don't think that will change quickly. I'm not overly technical and rely a lot on feel. I want to keep that element of my golf - for me it's what makes it fun. Like any method s&t gives you a few things to think about and coincidentally these were the things that needed working on - mainly swaying and an out to in swing path.
I'll see what happens over the winter but the likelyhood is, it won't be too different to what you saw in the vids. I like that there are a million different ways to get a ball round a course and that two people can shoot the same score using totally different methods.
Peace and love x
Firstly I want to say thanks to everyone who's offered up advice. It is greatly appreciated.
Secondly, just wanted to throw in my two cents on the whole 'disagreement'
I've played for a few years now getting down to six before stopping for a while. Since I've started again I've been woefully inconsistent hence looking for a few ways of getting a more regular swing. I'm not saying s&t is the answer for me, I actually don't think it is. But there are a few elements which seemed to have helped. I've always had a pretty active lower half (wayyyyohhh!) and I don't think that will change quickly. I'm not overly technical and rely a lot on feel. I want to keep that element of my golf - for me it's what makes it fun. Like any method s&t gives you a few things to think about and coincidentally these were the things that needed working on - mainly swaying and an out to in swing path.
I'll see what happens over the winter but the likelyhood is, it won't be too different to what you saw in the vids. I like that there are a million different ways to get a ball round a course and that two people can shoot the same score using totally different methods.
Peace and love x
bobmac
Major Champion
So that will be keep the head still on the backswing to help with the sway and my head cover drill to help with the swing path
