Roll Up Group Handicaps

[D-S]

Why will they need updates ? I thought WHS was be all and end all.

There are scheduled updates every 4 years, I believe timed to coincide with rules updates. I don’t think anyone is saying the rules are always going to be the same (if they were the be all and end all we’d still be playing stymies and dropping the ball over our shoulder), the same applies to rules of handicapping

 

[D-S]

To attempt to summarise the situation :

Short term.
a) If your roll up plays gimmees or modified handicaps, you can continue to do as you are doing, as your rounds are not valid for EG/WHS purposes
b) If your roll up is played by WHS handicap rules and R&A golf rules, then, as your rounds are counting, then you must submit all scores for your handicap.

No to point a) - in the short term you cannot use modified handicaps in swindles/roll-ups, even if the rounds for whatever reason (e.g. format or non conforming course) the rounds are not acceptable for Handicapping.

 

[Swango1980]

Has anyone actually asked golfers if they want their social golf regulated by the rules of handicapping?
Golfers pay for Golf England they do not subside golfers.

I'm guessing they did at our club, given that there are 2 roll ups that put their scores in for handicap. I wouldn't even be surprised if the weekend swindle group asked the club themselves if they could get their scores in for handicap, given they are a closed group.

 

[Swango1980]

What intrigues me is as follows:

There are a couple of swindles at my club each week. The weekend one is certainly organised between mates, the weekday one has many regular faces, but open to anyone to turn up and play. There are about 20-40 players in the field in general. Clearly, all those people that play (and it could be pushing 100 people if you count those that just turn up every now and then) are happy to submit their scores, just like they would in a club run competition.

So, you can see why I completely don't understand the argument some are making about the WHS Police, being forced into something you don't want to do, etc. For anyone making that argument, or if there are many others like that, what would you have done if you were a member of my club? Demonstrated against submitting scores? Thrown the toys out of the pram? Tried to convince the very many members who are happy to put in a card to demonstrate against it? Try and force some rule changes to ensure rounds are not acceptable for handicap?

Just because there are some people that get wound up about submitting scores for handicap, in a roll up of 20-40 people, I'm pretty sure most will not share your thoughts. Most will probably not mind either way, they'll just go out and enjoy golf all the same. But, there will be others that are actually pleased scores are going in, because:

• They get more scores on their record and their scores are up to date (can't really submit GP scores if a roll up insists on funky rules after all)
• They get more competition scores on their record, might help them qualify for events
• They are comforted that everyone in the roll up will get updates to their handicap, and it takes away the annoyance that some can shoot good scores and always keep their higher official handicap because those scores are never accounted for

Arguments against not submitting scores, I'm guessing are:

• I'm a bandit, and don't want to risk my handicap going down in a roll up, when I can have a nice high handicap for the next board comp
• I've got a super low handicap I'm not really capable of playing too anymore, but I want to keep it low because people will think I'm amazing, no point in it going up after a roll up.
• I like to chat to people and enjoy myself. But if my score is to be submitted, then I will have to remain mute and have a terrible, stressful time
• I'm happy to throw in a couple of quid for a roll up (or whatever), but I'm simply donating that to the winner. Because all I want to do is mess around, try lots of shots I'd never play, and have no desire to try and execute good shots for a decent score. As evidence, I have never shot over 30 points in a roll up, as I genuinely just don't try at all.

 

[D-S]

What intrigues me is as follows:

There are a couple of swindles at my club each week. The weekend one is certainly organised between mates, the weekday one has many regular faces, but open to anyone to turn up and play. There are about 20-40 players in the field in general. Clearly, all those people that play (and it could be pushing 100 people if you count those that just turn up every now and then) are happy to submit their scores, just like they would in a club run competition.

So, you can see why I completely don't understand the argument some are making about the WHS Police, being forced into something you don't want to do, etc. For anyone making that argument, or if there are many others like that, what would you have done if you were a member of my club? Demonstrated against submitting scores? Thrown the toys out of the pram? Tried to convince the very many members who are happy to put in a card to demonstrate against it? Try and force some rule changes to ensure rounds are not acceptable for handicap?

Just because there are some people that get wound up about submitting scores for handicap, in a roll up of 20-40 people, I'm pretty sure most will not share your thoughts. Most will probably not mind either way, they'll just go out and enjoy golf all the same. But, there will be others that are actually pleased scores are going in, because:

• They get more scores on their record and their scores are up to date (can't really submit GP scores if a roll up insists on funky rules after all)
• They get more competition scores on their record, might help them qualify for events
• They are comforted that everyone in the roll up will get updates to their handicap, and it takes away the annoyance that some can shoot good scores and always keep their higher official handicap because those scores are never accounted for

Arguments against not submitting scores, I'm guessing are:

• I'm a bandit, and don't want to risk my handicap going down in a roll up, when I can have a nice high handicap for the next board comp
• I've got a super low handicap I'm not really capable of playing too anymore, but I want to keep it low because people will think I'm amazing, no point in it going up after a roll up.
• I like to chat to people and enjoy myself. But if my score is to be submitted, then I will have to remain mute and have a terrible, stressful time
• I'm happy to throw in a couple of quid for a roll up (or whatever), but I'm simply donating that to the winner. Because all I want to do is mess around, try lots of shots I'd never play, and have no desire to try and execute good shots for a decent score. As evidence, I have never shot over 30 points in a roll up, as I genuinely just don't try at all.

Though in the main I do agree with your points for submitting scores, I am neither one-eyed nor antagonistic enough to think that the list of points you made against submitting scores are either all correct or cover all the arguments against always submitting scores.

 

[Swango1980]

Though in the main I do agree with your points for submitting scores, I am neither one-eyed nor antagonistic enough to think that the list of points you made against submitting scores are either all correct or cover all the arguments against always submitting scores.

Fair enough.

I suppose I articulated it this way not to wind people up, but to highlight my surprise with the arguments against submitting scores, and the name calling of people on Committees who have made it happen at some clubs. Are there clubs, like mine, who have tried to encourage and help golfers in roll ups get their scores onto their handicap record, but they've faced a similar barrage from some members because they share the same view as some in here? Or, have these clubs been equally successful, most members are absolutely fine with it, and there may be a few dissenting voices in the background, most of whom continue to play anyway?

It is simply my opinion, but I struggle to really grasp any good reason not to submit a score, apart from the points I raised jovially in my previous post. I suppose I could add slow play to the list, because some believe having to hole out every hole takes significantly longer. Not experienced that myself, but then it doesn't take me a couple of minutes to think about a 6 inch putt, I just tend to tap it in.

 

[Dunesman]

No to point a) - in the short term you cannot use modified handicaps in swindles/roll-ups, even if the rounds for whatever reason (e.g. format or non conforming course) the rounds are not acceptable for Handicapping.

As long as you have always been doing it, then you are outside the jurisdiction of EG golf in the first place. You arent breaking a rule.
If you have been playing them legally, only then would you be in breach of the rule that says you cannot make rounds non conforming to deliberately move outside EG control.
So if you are outside, the rule doesnt apply, so you can stay outside. If you are inside, then the rules apply, which includes forbidding you then moving outside.

 

[D-S]

As long as you have always been doing it, then you are outside the jurisdiction of EG golf in the first place. You arent breaking a rule.
If you have been playing them legally, only then would you be in breach of the rule that says you cannot make rounds non conforming to deliberately move outside EG control.
So if you are outside, the rule doesnt apply, so you can stay outside. If you are inside, then the rules apply, which includes forbidding you then moving outside.

If I were responding to you from the EG point of view, I would say that not only you are incorrect and but also what you have written is utter nonsensical drivel.

 

[AussieKB]

Fair enough.

I suppose I articulated it this way not to wind people up, but to highlight my surprise with the arguments against submitting scores, and the name calling of people on Committees who have made it happen at some clubs. Are there clubs, like mine, who have tried to encourage and help golfers in roll ups get their scores onto their handicap record, but they've faced a similar barrage from some members because they share the same view as some in here? Or, have these clubs been equally successful, most members are absolutely fine with it, and there may be a few dissenting voices in the background, most of whom continue to play anyway?

It is simply my opinion, but I struggle to really grasp any good reason not to submit a score, apart from the points I raised jovially in my previous post. I suppose I could add slow play to the list, because some believe having to hole out every hole takes significantly longer. Not experienced that myself, but then it doesn't take me a couple of minutes to think about a 6 inch putt, I just tend to tap it in.

You don't use Aimpoint then

 

[Dunesman]

If I were responding to you from the EG point of view, I would say that not only you are incorrect and but also what you have written is utter nonsensical drivel.

I wasnt taking it directly from EG, but more from the explanations discussed in the quoted NCG podcast. What I have put here, is, what I think they are saying.

 

[D-S]

I wasnt taking it directly from EG, but more from the explanations discussed in the quoted NCG podcast. What I have put here, is, what I think they are saying.

Then you are wrong.
Players in Swindles/roll ups irrespective of format are only allowed to use their WHS Playing Handicap. If they persist in running their own handicap system they risk having their handicaps withdrawn as they are contravening the rules of handicapping which apply to competitive golf at Clubs affiliated to England Golf. Organised, regular roll ups are considered by EG to be competitive golf, therefore the rules apply. This is exactly what was confirmed directly in person by EG as per the previous posts in this thread.

I don’t think I can make it any clearer than that

 

[AussieKB]

I have an 8 game event out here and run my own handicap system.....I better start looking over my shoulder,
24 players last year.

 

[D-S]

I have an 8 game event out here and run my own handicap system.....I better start looking over my shoulder,
24 players last year.

As you are not under the jurisdiction of England Golf then you may well be perfectly ok.

If you are really concerned I would suggest checking with Golf Australia.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Then you are wrong.
Players in Swindles/roll ups irrespective of format are only allowed to use their WHS Playing Handicap. If they persist in running their own handicap system they risk having their handicaps withdrawn as they are contravening the rules of handicapping which apply to competitive golf at Clubs affiliated to England Golf. Organised, regular roll ups are considered by EG to be competitive golf, therefore the rules apply. This is exactly what was confirmed directly in person by EG as per the previous posts in this thread.

I don’t think I can make it any clearer than that

Can you tell me if you expect a club to enforce this and also how are they intending on enforcing it

“Regular roll ups are considered by EG”

What if the people playing in this social events don’t “consider” it to be competitive golf

 

[Slab]

Can you tell me if you expect a club to enforce this and also how are they intending on enforcing it

“Regular roll ups are considered by EG”

What if the people playing in this social events don’t “consider” it to be competitive golf

Do any of these people still accept the prize if they win?

 

[RichA]

Can you tell me if you expect a club to enforce this and also how are they intending on enforcing it

“Regular roll ups are considered by EG”

What if the people playing in this social events don’t “consider” it to be competitive golf

They can't.
My proprietary club has 700 members. No idea how many little semi-organised groups there are within those 700 who have their own little comps that they never dreamed might be considered organised by the authorities. I'm a member of three groups.
The owners won't want their customers being harangued for just playing golf.
The handful of committee members won't want to get involved because there are only a handful of them and probably hundreds of offenders. They might even be amongst the offenders.
Everybody just wants to play golf and have a nice time. Everybody knows what's an official comp and what isn't.
Anyone trying to complicate it really hasn't thought it through.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Do any of these people still accept the prize if they win?

What if there isn’t a prize

 

[Slab]

What if there isn’t a prize

A roll-up with no participation fee &/or prize? Hmm that might be worth a poll

 

[Swango1980]

A roll-up with no participation fee &/or prize? Hmm that might be worth a poll

Could argue, is it even a competition? What are you competing for, ego?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

They can't.
My proprietary club has 700 members. No idea how many little semi-organised groups there are within those 700 who have their own little comps that they never dreamed might be considered organised by the authorities. I'm a member of three groups.
The owners won't want their customers being harangued for just playing golf.
The handful of committee members won't want to get involved because there are only a handful of them and probably hundreds of offenders. They might even be amongst the offenders.
Everybody just wants to play golf and have a nice time. Everybody knows what's an official comp and what isn't.
Anyone trying to complicate it really hasn't thought it through.

Exactly that

People can regurgitate what EG consider etc

But if a bunch of guys want to play social golf for a £1 or £2 or £5 and they use their own HC system for cuts etc then there is very little that a club can do about it

Also when I look at the three swindles I play in

Most of the HCs are close to your club

Some who are on Rich veins of form get themselves big cuts etc and ones playing shocking get shots back and it’s systems put in place that look like they are more balanced in terms of who picks up the money etc

We also find that people also make their own choice about putting a card in. The ones that are playing well seem to do it