nickjdavis
Head Pro
Stop keeping records....then there will be nothing to audit....or take the records away from the club into "private ownership".
Tell the club you have stopped your nefarious practices.
Carry on as normal.
Roll Up Group Handicaps
- Thread starter HomerJSimpson
- Start date
Tell the club you have stopped your nefarious practices.
Carry on as normal.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Hmm, that does seem overzealous and a bit ridiculous. What you said here sounds workable though to me:
"It has been suggested to simply record scores off full playing handicaps and then simply deduct 2 points for winners for 3 weeks and 1 point for the same period for those in second place off their total."
I mean, if the normal practice is to cut the winner by two shots for the next week - and instead of that you say 'the winner gets a 2 point penalty the following week' - in most cases that amounts to the same thing / same score, yet you can tell your secretary that there are no longer any 'differing handicaps' used.
D-S
Well-known member
Exactly, it was probably the same seminar/workshop I attended.
They could not have been clearer and more serious about sanctions involved.
The reactions from other people from other clubs and Counties were as they have been on here - however, honestly, they (EG Regional Handicap Manager, EG Head of Handicapping and EG Club Liaison Officers) meant it. I was directly advised that clubs should withdraw handicaps of members who did this. Maybe shows a distinction between them and the day to day life of a golf club.
Your Handicap secretary is only doing as advised.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
If they said it then it shows a complete lack of understanding of golf clubs and their members
But it’s not a surprise
So out of touch
rulefan
Tour Winner
If individual players wish to put in GP scores, that's up to them and they must use the WHS HI and gross scores etc.
But given that the manual only says the Playing Handicap is 'recommended' and that is is the 'handicap' that the roll-up is using for the actual competition to determine winners etc, I can't see why/how EG are concerned/involved.
But given that the manual only says the Playing Handicap is 'recommended' and that is is the 'handicap' that the roll-up is using for the actual competition to determine winners etc, I can't see why/how EG are concerned/involved.
RichA
Well-known member
What rule would they be breaking that a sanction is justified?
I'm not a golf rules person but scanned the rules and couldn't see anything that fits.
D-S
Well-known member
EG state in their Adverse Weather document that it is contrary to the Rules of Handicapping but without trawling though that and the Guidance document I don’t know which rule.
Here is the quote though
The Squirrel
Well-known member
It’s just nomenclature really isn’t it. Just reply thanking for the advice and saying that you WILL use the WHS handicap in your competition and don’t hold your own handicap (say nothing more).
Then run the comp as normal, using the WHS handicaps, and then apply a ‘ recent winner bonus’ (note bonus not handicap - you are not using a different handicap!) as the final stage of working out who won. End result is the same. Job done. No rules broken. Carry on exactly the same as you always were.
Yes it’s silly but sometimes the diplomatic solution is the easiest and a fight just isn’t worth having…
Then run the comp as normal, using the WHS handicaps, and then apply a ‘ recent winner bonus’ (note bonus not handicap - you are not using a different handicap!) as the final stage of working out who won. End result is the same. Job done. No rules broken. Carry on exactly the same as you always were.
Yes it’s silly but sometimes the diplomatic solution is the easiest and a fight just isn’t worth having…
RichA
Well-known member
Just googling and found a work around for swindles that was mentioned at one particular club on their website...
Play to your official handicaps and score as normal but recent winners suffer penalty points that are deducted from their final score.
Seems completely unnecessary but negates the alleged rule break that nobody thought anyone could possibly be worried about.
Edit: basically what @The Squirrel just said while I was typing.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
NearHull
Well-known member
Playing Handicaps are mandatory in GB&I.
D-S
Well-known member
Do you have a swindle handicap? If so, maybe the organiser has it on record.Just checked my HC record - can only see one there
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Any roll-up, swindle or other informal group I play in just use the course handicap but its not that many so I’ve never really paid attention to who wins each week/month
Where groups of regular players deduct a shot or two (or three) from their roll-up ‘winners’, does it work. I mean is it actually needed? i.e how many times would they actually be a winner in successive roll ups if they hadn’t been manually ‘cut’? And do you reckon that its more or less likely since whs came in
If its keeping anyone awake at night then as suggested post round penalties is an easy solution without interfering with whs or handicaps in general
Where groups of regular players deduct a shot or two (or three) from their roll-up ‘winners’, does it work. I mean is it actually needed? i.e how many times would they actually be a winner in successive roll ups if they hadn’t been manually ‘cut’? And do you reckon that its more or less likely since whs came in
If its keeping anyone awake at night then as suggested post round penalties is an easy solution without interfering with whs or handicaps in general
sjw
Well-known member
If your handicaps were accurate, you wouldn't have the same winners every week
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Winter is a blind spot at many clubs though. My place is not qualifying through winter so h/c don't change. I'm sure the same is true for many clubs. If someone is having a hot streak during this period, the system doesn't fix it.
YandaB
Newbie
If you need the actual rule it is Appendix A 1, ii from the WHS Rules of Handicapping
I did wonder about the wording of expected, that to me sounds like it's not mandatory, I would have thought obligated would be used. The Mirriam Webster Dictionary has several definitions, here are 2:
1 a : to consider probable or certain [what I was thinking, in golf parlance should, not must]
c : to consider bound in duty or obligated [I guess that they mean this version - must]
I too was at one of these workshops and they were very, very, very clear in their message. "If it looks like a competition and smells like a competition, it is a competition" was what they were saying. Even if the prize is a bag of chips, who it is organising the competition did not matter.
Cynical me thinks that someone higher up the food chain is on a bonus for increasing the number of rounds logged in the EG system as that is the measurement used for "growing the game", I could be wrong.
I did wonder about the wording of expected, that to me sounds like it's not mandatory, I would have thought obligated would be used. The Mirriam Webster Dictionary has several definitions, here are 2:
1 a : to consider probable or certain [what I was thinking, in golf parlance should, not must]
c : to consider bound in duty or obligated [I guess that they mean this version - must]
I too was at one of these workshops and they were very, very, very clear in their message. "If it looks like a competition and smells like a competition, it is a competition" was what they were saying. Even if the prize is a bag of chips, who it is organising the competition did not matter.
Cynical me thinks that someone higher up the food chain is on a bonus for increasing the number of rounds logged in the EG system as that is the measurement used for "growing the game", I could be wrong.
YandaB
Newbie
That it is not official seems to be their issue, therefore it is relevant. Like you said earlier, out of touch.He may well do - but as it’s not official then it’s irrelevant
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Doesn’t need to be official - we all have an official one that we use when playing official club qualifying comps etc
Many of us may have “fun” HCs
Playing a bit of Devil’s Advocate, though splitting hairs really… having or not having a shot on certain holes might influence the way an individual plays a particular hole. TBH, for that amount times it’ll affect the official h’cap, it sounds a bit pathetic really.
Also, as swindle handicaps are lower than official h’cap, it’s hardly a bandits paradise.
Also, as swindle handicaps are lower than official h’cap, it’s hardly a bandits paradise.
