Red Stakes

[doublebogey7]

I think what you say is largely irrefutable common sense. But I think it is also common sense that this text from the relevant clarification (or something very much like it) would better belong in the players' book.
It would not take up much page space.

"... it may be possible for the player to measure the two club-lengths from the reference point across the penalty area in determining the size of the relief area."

Generally, I think that most, or a large number, would assume there is no more to the rule than what they see in the players' book and not give any consideration at all to the clarifications.

As there is with many of the rules, hence the need for clarifications.

 

[Voyager EMH]

According to the OED
limit: a point, line or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass.

The "same penalty area" is a "limit to the location of the relief area"

You do not, or may not, extend beyond or pass a limit.

But the wording of golf rules do not need to be accurate and there is no need for improving them.

 

[salfordlad]

According to the OED
limit: a point, line or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass.

The "same penalty area" is a "limit to the location of the relief area"

You do not, or may not, extend beyond or pass a limit.

But the wording of golf rules do not need to be accurate and there is no need for improving them.

I'm sure I know precisely how the RBs are defining "limit" and they are doing so in a way appropriate to the context - unlike your suggestion that the OED words mean they have got it wrong.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'm sure I know precisely how the RBs are defining "limit" and they are doing so in a way appropriate to the context - unlike your suggestion that the OED words mean they have got it wrong.

I am sure that I know the precise meaning of limit.

If there is another meaning, invented and used by a small group of people, I do not know it.

But I do understand ambiguities that can be created by poor phrasing.

Such as, "Dogs must be carried in this park."

If you are not carrying a dog, you can not enter the park?
No.
But an ambiguity has been created by poor phrasing.

Better phrasing and using the correct and accepted meaning of words can lessen the occurrences of misleading information.

We might understand the "intended meaning" but improving poor wording can only be a good thing.

Standing firm and defending poor wording seems a ridiculous stance to take - in my view.

 

[Steven Rules]

According to the OED
limit: a point, line or level beyond which something does not or may not extend or pass.

This is now getting ridiculous. I do not know why I am continuing to engage. It seems futile. But seeing as you have opened up this new line of discussion....

I do not have a dictionary in front of me but is there another definition of 'limit' in there? Something along the lines of a restriction on the size or amount of something permissible or possible.

This would seem to fit the Rules context fairly neatly.

Are you being somewhat selective in your quoting of the dictionary?

 

[Voyager EMH]

This is now getting ridiculous. I do not know why I am continuing to engage. It seems futile. But seeing as you have opened up this new line of discussion....

I do not have a dictionary in front of me but is there another definition of 'limit' in there? Something along the lines of a restriction on the size or amount of something permissible or possible.

This would seem to fit the Rules context fairly neatly.

Are you being somewhat selective in your quoting of the dictionary?

I have selected and copied the first words that appear for the meaning of "limit" in the ninth edition 1995 Concise English Oxford Dictionary.

I do not see a meaning that would suit your desire for an alternative meaning.

It does not appear to me to be a word with a fluid or mutable meaning.

The heading is "limit to the location of the relief area" and not "restriction to the location of the relief area."

A limit is not a limit, if it can be extended beyond or passed.

We might understand the "intended meaning" in this case, but it is poorly set out and could/should be improved.

 

[nickjdavis]

Who knew that a simple semi circle on a diagram would generate so much angst.

 

[woofers]

This is now getting ridiculous.

It certainly is.
Like I said earlier, like a dog with a bone.

 

[Colin L]

I have selected and copied the first words that appear for the meaning of "limit" in the ninth edition 1995 Concise English Oxford Dictionary.

I do not see a meaning that would suit your desire for an alternative meaning.

It does not appear to me to be a word with a fluid or mutable meaning.

The heading is "limit to the location of the relief area" and not "restriction to the location of the relief area."

A limit is not a limit, if it can be extended beyond or passed.

We might understand the "intended meaning" in this case, but it is poorly set out and could/should be improved.

Would you care to re-consider this given that the headings to the ways in which relief areas are limited actually read Limits to the location of the relief area?

By the way, the OED lists 16 meanings for limit. I don't know what they are as I don't subscribe to the dictionary but can you assure us that you considered 16 possible meanings before reaching your conclusion?

 

[Colin L]

This is now getting ridiculous. ......

I don't quite agree. It got ridiculous a while ago.

 

[Swango1980]

This is now getting ridiculous. I do not know why I am continuing to engage. It seems futile. But seeing as you have opened up this new line of discussion....

I do not have a dictionary in front of me but is there another definition of 'limit' in there? Something along the lines of a restriction on the size or amount of something permissible or possible.

This would seem to fit the Rules context fairly neatly.

Are you being somewhat selective in your quoting of the dictionary?

I said a long time ago, he was just digging a deeper and deeper hole. And yet he continues.

Not sure anybody has ever gone into as much detail and depth to explain why they made a mistake with their assumption on a rule.

Why? Just to convince everyone that it is the fault of how the rule is written (that everyone else understands), rather than their lack of understanding.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Can someone provide a summary

 

[Voyager EMH]

I don't quite agree. It got ridiculous a while ago.

I said so this morning

"Standing firm and defending poor wording seems a ridiculous stance to take - in my view."

 

[salfordlad]

I have selected and copied the first words that appear for the meaning of "limit" in the ninth edition 1995 Concise English Oxford Dictionary.

I do not see a meaning that would suit your desire for an alternative meaning.

It does not appear to me to be a word with a fluid or mutable meaning.

The heading is "limit to the location of the relief area" and not "restriction to the location of the relief area."

A limit is not a limit, if it can be extended beyond or passed.

We might understand the "intended meaning" in this case, but it is poorly set out and could/should be improved.

You are now, genuinely, laughable.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Would you care to re-consider this given that the headings to the ways in which relief areas are limited actually read Limits to the location of the relief area?

By the way, the OED lists 16 meanings for limit. I don't know what they are as I don't subscribe to the dictionary but can you assure us that you considered 16 possible meanings before reaching your conclusion?

Oh, I apologise for omitting the pluralising "s" for the word "limits" in the heading. I really should take more care.
I don't think I need to do any "re-considering". It was a typing/copying error on my part, but does not make a significant difference.

I'm afraid I can give no assurance as to 16 meanings of the word "limit".

The Concise OED that I have is from 1995.
It lists 4 meanings for the noun "limit".
The first one I have already typed
2. (often in pl) the boundary of an area
3. the greatest or smallest amount permissible or possible (upper limit; lower limit)
4. Math. a quantity which a function or sum of a series can be made to approach as closely as possible.

I think we can ignore 3 and 4. (I fully understand 4) They don't apply here.
The first meaning tells me that a limit is only a limit if it can not be extended beyond or passed.

Meaning 2 is interesting. If we replace the plural "limits" with "boundary of an area" in the heading we have, "Boundary of an area to the location of the relief area"
I don't think that would be an improvement.
Even the more simplified, "Boundary of the location of the relief area" does not make an improvement in my view. This would seem more difficult to perceive accurate meaning.

Re-phrasing is what I believe is needed. Perhaps an intelligent use of the word "encompass" or "encompassing" would be useful.

"May encompass part of the same penalty area even though that same penalty area is not relief area" is an idea. But the heading would also need a re-think.
But maybe something even better could be imagined by someone.

As I said earlier, even inserting one line from the clarification would be an improvement. But as it stands, it can cause misconceptions due to its lack of clarity.

 

[backwoodsman]

I said in post #59 that I think we're not going to change anyone's opinion. That much is becoming more & more obvious. However, I'm pretty sure that that more than one person has good command of the English language. And of those people, only one, or at most very few, seem to think there is any problem with the phraseology.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Sorry what does the dictionary have to do with a ruling when it comes to red stakes

 

[Colin L]

Oh, I apologise for omitting the pluralising "s" for the word "limits" in the heading. I really should take more care.
I don't think I need to do any "re-considering". It was a typing/copying error on my part, but does not make a significant difference.

I'm afraid I can give no assurance as to 16 meanings of the word "limit".

The Concise OED that I have is from 1995.
It lists 4 meanings for the noun "limit".
The first one I have already typed
2. (often in pl) the boundary of an area
3. the greatest or smallest amount permissible or possible (upper limit; lower limit)
4. Math. a quantity which a function or sum of a series can be made to approach as closely as possible.

I think we can ignore 3 and 4. (I fully understand 4) They don't apply here.
The first meaning tells me that a limit is only a limit if it can not be extended beyond or passed.

Meaning 2 is interesting. If we replace the plural "limits" with "boundary of an area" in the heading we have, "Boundary of an area to the location of the relief area"
I don't think that would be an improvement.
Even the more simplified, "Boundary of the location of the relief area" does not make an improvement in my view. This would seem more difficult to perceive accurate meaning.

Re-phrasing is what I believe is needed. Perhaps an intelligent use of the word "encompass" or "encompassing" would be useful.

"May encompass part of the same penalty area even though that same penalty area is not relief area" is an idea. But the heading would also need a re-think.
But maybe something even better could be imagined by someone.

As I said earlier, even inserting one line from the clarification would be an improvement. But as it stands, it can cause misconceptions due to its lack of clarity.

Well, I expect the plural was deliberately chosen and is significant, but fine, let's just ignore that along with the 12 other meanings listed in the full OED and, of course, the Clarifications.

A waste of time all of this.

 

[salfordlad]

An administrator shutdown of this thread would be a considerable mercy. It has achieved status as a single person rant without peer and with irrationality continuing to build.

 

[Colin L]

An administrator shutdown of this thread would be a considerable mercy. It has achieved status as a single person rant without peer and with irrationality continuing to build.

Someone earlier jokingly asked for a summary; they don't come better than that one.