Red Stakes

[Swango1980]

I don't.

It is a contradiction.
I do not feel that I have an interpretation. I have a comprehension of the rule as written.

I would think most of us do not refer to the Clarifications. I don't.

The rule that I read does not cause me any doubt or confusion. The identified, or measured, relief area can not include the penalty area.
I do not seek any clarification.

I think that the regular rules should include another drawing that allows straddling of the penalty area and a change to the wording, if this is within the rules.

Seems to be quite a big hole you are digging

 

[Voyager EMH]

Seems to be quite a big hole you are digging

I don't see it that way at all.
I find no fault in myself to be embarrassed about.

I have referred to the rules as I read them. There is no scope for straddling the penalty area with those rules as they are written.

I have not read the clarifications. I am not embarrassed about that either.

It seems to me that the rule needs to be re-written to allow this straddling of the penalty area when identifying the relief area.
At the moment, the rule does not allow straddling of the penalty area in the form that it is written.

 

[Swango1980]

It's getting a very deep hole indeed

 

[Voyager EMH]

It's getting a very deep hole indeed

No hole has no depth.

 

[salfordlad]

I think the reference to the local rule for relief on the opposite bank is a bit of a red herring, and whoever raised it was misinterpreting what CF was doing/wanting to do and misunderstanding the intent of the local rule.

More then "red herring", it is simply wrong. The relief area of 2CL from reference point and not nearer the hole is the "potential" area and the correct relief area is any part of that potential area that is in the general area or in bunker, putting green or any different penalty area.

 

[D-S]

More then "red herring", it is simply wrong. The relief area of 2CL from reference point and not nearer the hole is the "potential" area and the correct relief area is any part of that potential area that is in the general area or in bunker, putting green or any different penalty area.

So you could drop in a different area of the course?
Or am I misunderstanding your reference to “potential “ area?

 

[Steven Rules]

Your understanding is correct. The relief area may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. It follows that the relief area could potentially be in a different penalty area.

This is what salfordlad was referring to as "any part of that potential area that is in the general area or in bunker, putting green or any different penalty area."

Rule 17.1d(3)

 

[salfordlad]

In your drawing a good portion of the relief area is then in the penalty area.

The relief area can not be two separate parts. It must be one whole area.

No part of the relief area can be in the penalty area - thus the relief area must be wholly on the side of the penalty area where the entry point is.

A drawing such as yours will not be in the rules of golf.

I am a fan of the contributions you make to this site. Here I try to assist you with this issue. And I acknowledge up front, there is some complexity in the Rules with respect to relief areas.

The drawing in post #8 is accurate.

I have, truly, never seen or heard this bolded argument in the quoted post above. It is the foundation of your misunderstanding. There simply is nothing in the Rules/Clarifications/Committee Procedures that support those bolded words.

No part of the same penalty area within 2CL of the reference point (and not nearer the hole) is part of the relief area. Everything else (no exception) on the golf course within 2CL of the reference point (and not nearer the hole) is part of the available relief area for lateral penalty area relief. This point is demonstrated in the third bullet point of 17.1d(3).

 

[salfordlad]

Your understanding is correct. The relief area may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. It follows that the relief area could potentially be in a different penalty area.

This is what salfordlad was referring to as "any part of that potential area that is in the general area or in bunker, putting green or any different penalty area."

Rule 17.1d(3)

As Steven notes, penalty area (lateral or BOL) relief (and lateral or BOL unplayable ball relief) may be taken in any area of the course. But there also is an additional complication - as soon as that dropped ball hits the ground in one area of the course, the ball must come to rest in that same area of the course. So, for example, player is taking lateral relief and there is general area and a different penalty area (but very playable ground) within the 2CL of the reference point. If the drop lands in the general area part but rolls into the other area of the course (the different penalty area), it must be re-dropped. That is, the permitted relief area actually gets re-defined by the Rules (it literally shrinks) when the dropped ball first lands in one area of the course if there is more than one course area within the 2CL. This is not a situation that arises very often.
Edit, this was meant to be a reply to D-S to add to Steven's reply, I mistakenly replied to Steven's post.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I am a fan of the contributions you make to this site. Here I try to assist you with this issue. And I acknowledge up front, there is some complexity in the Rules with respect to relief areas.

The drawing in post #8 is accurate.

I have, truly, never seen or heard this bolded argument in the quoted post above. It is the foundation of your misunderstanding. There simply is nothing in the Rules/Clarifications/Committee Procedures that support those bolded words.

No part of the same penalty area within 2CL of the reference point (and not nearer the hole) is part of the relief area. Everything else (no exception) on the golf course within 2CL of the reference point (and not nearer the hole) is part of the available relief area for lateral penalty area relief. This point is demonstrated in the third bullet point of 17.1d(3).

I really don't feel that I have any misunderstanding.
The clarification has been explained to me. I understand it. I accept it.
I am not confused and I do not feel I have failed to comprehend what I have read in the rules.

The drawing in post #8 shows a relief area that includes some of the penalty area.
This contradicts the statement that the relief area "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

This is where the re-write needs to occur.
The third bullet point is also a contradiction of the previous statement.

"If more than one area of the course is located within two club-lengths of the reference point" - to me this could be that the two-clublengths stretches over a part of an area that is not the course, ie OOB, and back onto the course.

It is not explicit that straddling the penalty area is permitted. To me this is one relief area a that includes the penalty area not "more than one area of the course" since the penalty area is on the course not off it.

Th clarification may "put this right" but the confusion is not mine. It is in the way the rule has been worded and set out. This needs to be improved.

 

[salfordlad]

I really don't feel that I have any misunderstanding.
The clarification has been explained to me. I understand it. I accept it.
I am not confused and I do not feel I have failed to comprehend what I have read in the rules.

The drawing in post #8 shows a relief area that includes some of the penalty area.
This contradicts the statement that the relief area "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

This is where the re-write needs to occur.
The third bullet point is also a contradiction of the previous statement.

"If more than one area of the course is located within two club-lengths of the reference point" - to me this could be that the two-clublengths stretches over a part of an area that is not the course, ie OOB, and back onto the course.

It is not explicit that straddling the penalty area is permitted. To me this is one relief area a that includes the penalty area not "more than one area of the course" since the penalty area is on the course not off it.

Th clarification may "put this right" but the confusion is not mine. It is in the way the rule has been worded and set out. This needs to be improved.

The diagram in #8 precisely shows the correct relief area - the cross-hatched area. There is no contradiction, there is no error in the Rules and no requirement for re-write.

 

[Orikoru]

We'll we're on this subject, I just want to check I ruled myself correctly on this in my medal round on Saturday. Not least because I advised someone to do exactly the same thing the day after in the same situation, ha.

So on our 12th, this ditch is marked with red stakes, and it runs on the kind of back-side of the hedge/bushes on the right of the green as well. I've drawn that with dotted lines since you can't see that part of it on the aerial view. The blue arrow is the direction my shot came in, and the blue dot is where I ended up, since it sort of went straight towards the bush on the end, but then must have rolled a few yards along the ditch after it landed in it.

Rather than take a drop out on the right, on the 9th hole, and having to try and flop it over a hedge, I figured it had actually crossed the line of the hazard at the green X, so I put a tee in the ground there, then measured two club lengths to the left (not nearer the hole of course), and put another tee in there (green dot), then dropped my ball between those two tee pegs. Was I right to do this? Obviously it benefitted me because then I could chip straight to the green from here, rather than having a much harder shot over a hedge if I'd have dropped out near that bunker - and I always have a niggling doubt when the rules benefit me for a change.

 

[salfordlad]

We'll we're on this subject, I just want to check I ruled myself correctly on this in my medal round on Saturday. Not least because I advised someone to do exactly the same thing the day after in the same situation, ha.

So on our 12th, this ditch is marked with red stakes, and it runs on the kind of back-side of the hedge/bushes on the right of the green as well. I've drawn that with dotted lines since you can't see that part of it on the aerial view. The blue arrow is the direction my shot came in, and the blue dot is where I ended up, since it sort of went straight towards the bush on the end, but then must have rolled a few yards along the ditch after it landed in it.

Rather than take a drop out on the right, on the 9th hole, and having to try and flop it over a hedge, I figured it had actually crossed the line of the hazard at the green X, so I put a tee in the ground there, then measured two club lengths to the left (not nearer the hole of course), and put another tee in there (green dot), then dropped my ball between those two tee pegs. Was I right to do this? Obviously it benefitted me because then I could chip straight to the green from here, rather than having a much harder shot over a hedge if I'd have dropped out near that bunker - and I always have a niggling doubt when the rules benefit me for a change.

View attachment 58462

Assuming you got the point of last crossing the edge of the PA correct - the green X - your drop was fine.

 

[Orikoru]

Assuming you got the point of last crossing the edge of the PA correct - the green X - your drop was fine.

Thanks. I mean, it pretty much went straight for that bush on the end, so it must have entered about there, based on where I hit from. (Thinking about it, the start of the arrow should be a bit straighter, I wasn't hitting from as far left as I made it look, but it still went towards that bush anyway. Imagine I did the base of the arrow from the second 'o' in Google instead.)

 

[Swango1980]

Don't worry about the accuracy of your line and how it represented your ball flight. All that matters is the point where your ball crossed the margin of the PA. Doesn't matter if you faded it in, hit it straight, of smashed it way right and it drew back to cross that point.

 

[Orikoru]

Don't worry about the accuracy of your line and how it represented your ball flight. All that matters is the point where your ball crossed the margin of the PA. Doesn't matter if you faded it in, hit it straight, of smashed it way right and it drew back to cross that point.

Glad I got it right, since I affected someone else's round with this ruling as well!

And some people on here reckon I don't know the rules.

 

[salfordlad]

Glad I got it right, since I affected someone else's round with this ruling as well!

And some people on here reckon I don't know the rules.

The point to get comfortable with is you are free to choose wherever within that 2CL of the reference point suits your next stroke best - you are simply making compliance with the rule work best for you.
There's a watch point when you are guiding someone else though, you can only point out how they can comply with the rule, not how to optimize compliance for their next stroke - that would fall foul of 10.2a.

 

[nickjdavis]

I really don't feel that I have any misunderstanding.
The clarification has been explained to me. I understand it. I accept it.
I am not confused and I do not feel I have failed to comprehend what I have read in the rules.

The drawing in post #8 shows a relief area that includes some of the penalty area.
This contradicts the statement that the relief area "May be in any area of the course except the same penalty area"

This is where the re-write needs to occur.
The third bullet point is also a contradiction of the previous statement.

"If more than one area of the course is located within two club-lengths of the reference point" - to me this could be that the two-clublengths stretches over a part of an area that is not the course, ie OOB, and back onto the course.

It is not explicit that straddling the penalty area is permitted. To me this is one relief area a that includes the penalty area not "more than one area of the course" since the penalty area is on the course not off it.

Th clarification may "put this right" but the confusion is not mine. It is in the way the rule has been worded and set out. This needs to be improved.

Actually it didnt...it just showed the 2 club length arc crossing over the penalty area. The cross hatched areas are the relief areas.

 

[nickjdavis]

It seems to me that the rule needs to be re-written to allow this straddling of the penalty area when identifying the relief area.
At the moment, the rule does not allow straddling of the penalty area in the form that it is written.

In the definition of Relief Area the following text exists...

In using club lengths to determine the size of the relief area, the player may measure directly across a ditch, hole or similar.....

In the definition of Penalty Area the following text exists...

A penalty area is - any body of water on the course (whether or not marked by the committee) including a sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface draining ditch....

So the first definition allows you to measure across a ditch, and a ditch, by the second definition, is a penalty area...ergo you can measure across a penalty area.

 

[Orikoru]

The point to get comfortable with is you are free to choose wherever within that 2CL of the reference point suits your next stroke best - you are simply making compliance with the rule work best for you.
There's a watch point when you are guiding someone else though, you can only point out how they can comply with the rule, not how to optimize compliance for their next stroke - that would fall foul of 10.2a.

Well, I basically just said "I had the exact same issue yesterday and I dropped on this side because that's the point it entered the hazard - and it's two club lengths or straight back from there". So should be good.