Putting another ball into play

[North Mimms]

I was looking at rules and decisions after reading the "declaring the ball lost" thread and found this interesting...

Thought i'd start a new thread to avoid confusing the other one

27-1/1 Original Ball Found Within Five-Minute Search Period After Another Ball Teed

Q - A player plays from the teeing ground, searches briefly for his ball and then goes back and tees another ball. Before he plays the teed ball, and within the five-minute search period, the original ball is found. May the player abandon the teed ball and play the original ball?
A - Yes. The teed ball was not in play since the player had not yet made a stroke at it – see Definition of “Ball in Play” – and the original ball was not lost – see Definition of “Lost Ball”.

Then this- Similar but importantly different


27-1/2 Original Ball Found Within Five-Minute Search Period After Another Ball Dropped

Q - A player plays his second shot, searches for his ball briefly and then goes back and drops another ball under Rule 27-1. Before he plays the dropped ball, and within the five-minute search period, the original ball is found. Is the player required to continue with the dropped ball?
A - Yes. When the player put the substituted ball into play at the spot of the previous stroke with the intent to play a ball under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1), the original ball was lost (see Definition of “Lost Ball”). Therefore, Rule 20-6 does not apply, and he must continue with the substituted ball.

I'm sure this is all very familiar to the Rules experts here, but it's a distinction I wouldn't have made in my ignorance

 

[Foxholer]

Indeed! The subtle, but important issue is when the ball is 'in play'.

 

[atticusfinch]

He may only continue witth the ball in play. A teed ball is in play when a stroke is made at it. The original remains the ball in play until it is deemed lost or ob.

A dropped ball is in play when it is dropped. So it becomes the ball in play at that time because the orig is deemed lost.

 

[North Mimms]

A teed ball is in play when a stroke is made at it. A dropped ball is in play when it is dropped.

That's the short version and much easier than the R&A one thank you.

Thought it was worth bringing to the attention of others

 

[ManinBlack]

That would catch a LOT of people out. Good post!

 

[North Mimms]

He may only continue witth the ball in play. A teed ball is in play when a stroke is made at it. The original remains the ball in play until it is deemed lost or ob.

A dropped ball is in play when it is dropped. So it becomes the ball in play at that time because the orig is deemed lost.

I think what would have caught me out was (wrongly) thinking, "I've started the hole already, what happens after my first shot goes AWOL is the same as if my second had gone AWOL"

You've clarified that for me

 

[delc]

I was involved in a a variation of this in a medal last year. One of my fellow competitors (a 6 handicapper) hooked his drive into the semi rough at 13th hole. We went forward to search and couldn't find it. He said to save time he would run back and play a provisional ball while we continued to search. He played his shot and just after this we found the original ball a bit further along than we thought, and still within the 5 minutes. He wanted to continue with his original ball, but I had to point out that you can't play a provisional ball once you have gone forward to search. Hence his second ball was the one in play under stroke and distance penalty. He wasn't happy about this and phoned the club pro for a ruling, who confirmed that this was indeed the case.

 

[rickg]

I was involved in a a variation of this in a medal last year. One of my fellow competitors (a 6 handicapper) hooked his drive into the semi rough at 13th hole. We went forward to search and couldn't find it. He said to save time he would run back and play a provisional ball while we continued to search. He played his shot and just after this we found the original ball a bit further along than we thought, and still within the 5 minutes. He wanted to continue with his original ball, but I had to point out that you can't play a provisional ball once you have gone forward to search. Hence his second ball was the one in play under stroke and distance penalty. He wasn't happy about this and phoned the club pro for a ruling, who confirmed that this was indeed the case.

Did you not think about informing him before he went back? Would have saved a lot of time and hassle.

It never ceases to amaze me how many controversial incidents you are personally involved in, and despite claiming to have a thorough understanding of the rules, you always seem to either get it wrong, or allow someone to sway you from taking the correct action.

 

[woody69]

Did you not think about informing him before he went back? Would have saved a lot of time and hassle.

It never ceases to amaze me how many controversial incidents you are personally involved in, and despite claiming to have a thorough understanding of the rules, you always seem to either get it wrong, or allow someone to sway you from taking the correct action.

Ha ha, I was thinking the same thing. Delc is like the fella on an instructional video who is always getting into some problem or another!

 

[delc]

Did you not think about informing him before he went back? Would have saved a lot of time and hassle.

It never ceases to amaze me how many controversial incidents you are personally involved in, and despite claiming to have a thorough understanding of the rules, you always seem to either get it wrong, or allow someone to sway you from taking the correct action.

The problem was that I was some distance away when he decided to run back and probably couldn't have stopped him anyway, as he is quite young and fit. Didn't think it would matter anyway, as the ball seemed to be lost at the time. Another FC found it about 20 yards further forward than we though, lying in a patch of clover. You would think that a 6 handicap player should know the rules in any case!

Going back to the original posting in this thread, a teed ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. In all other circumstances a ball on the ground is in play.

 

[North Mimms]

Going back to the original posting in this thread, a teed ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. In all other circumstances a ball on the ground is in play.

Already clarified thanks, but good to know that you agree!

 

[scottbrown]

The problem was that I was some distance away when he decided to run back and probably couldn't have stopped him anyway, as he is quite young and fit. Didn't think it would matter anyway, as the ball seemed to be lost at the time. Another FC found it about 20 yards further forward than we though, lying in a patch of clover. You would think that a 6 handicap player should know the rules in any case!

Going back to the original posting in this thread, a teed ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. In all other circumstances a ball on the ground is in play.

Why would handicap have any bearing on rules knowledge?

 

[duncan mackie]

Going back to the original posting in this thread, a teed ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. In all other circumstances a ball on the ground is in play.

absolute rubbish; here's some obvious examples to prove it

1. you drop a ball under 27-1 and it rolls more than 2 club lengths from where it first contacted the course
2. you return to the tee to proceed under 27-1 and a ball falls out of your golf bag onto the ground
3. you are proceeding under 27-1 and drop a ball which rolls less than 2cl but into a water hazard.

edit - in fairness in 1 above the ball remains the ball in play but has to be re-dropped...in the context of this thread that distinction is probably a step to far as well.

 

[Foxholer]

I was involved in a a variation of this in a medal last year. One of my fellow competitors (a 6 handicapper) hooked his drive into the semi rough at 13th hole. We went forward to search and couldn't find it. He said to save time he would run back and play a provisional ball while we continued to search. He played his shot and just after this we found the original ball a bit further along than we thought, and still within the 5 minutes. He wanted to continue with his original ball, but I had to point out that you can't play a provisional ball once you have gone forward to search. Hence his second ball was the one in play under stroke and distance penalty. He wasn't happy about this and phoned the club pro for a ruling, who confirmed that this was indeed the case.

I was involved in a similar 'shot-costing' incident - that also cost me a win in a comp!

Hit Drive and couldn't find it; went back to hit another, requesting that FCs continue looking and yell if they find it. Hit 2nd ball and when I got back they tossed me my 1st that they'd found (in time!), but thought it was lost as soon as I returned to play the 2nd! went through the rigmarole of playing 2 balls and checked with 'the Committee' (the Pro). He ruled, correctly I believe, that the ball was 'lost' as soon as I struck the 2nd, even though it had been found! It's an area I've been 'hot' on ever since!

 

[cookelad]

That would catch a LOT of people out. Good post!

Couldn't provide a time or date but I'm fairly certain that's caught me out!

 

[Colin L]

@ Del
What an action packed golfing life you lead, to be sure.

In contrast, may I report on my most enjoyable round today in which, as usual, absolutely nothing happened of the remotest interest to the followers of a rules forum.

 

[North Mimms]

@ Del
What an action packed golfing life you lead, to be sure.

In contrast, may I report on my most enjoyable round today in which, as usual, absolutely nothing happened of the remotest interest to the followers of a rules forum.

Possibly because having a rules expert in the fourball keeps everything simple

 

[atticusfinch]

absolute rubbish; here's some obvious examples to prove it

1. you drop a ball under 27-1 and it rolls more than 2 club lengths from where it first contacted the course
2. you return to the tee to proceed under 27-1 and a ball falls out of your golf bag onto the ground
3. you are proceeding under 27-1 and drop a ball which rolls less than 2cl but into a water hazard.

edit - in fairness in 1 above the ball remains the ball in play but has to be re-dropped...in the context of this thread that distinction is probably a step to far as well.

How do you reconcile your points with rule 15-2 and 20-4?'

#1 does the ball HAVE to be redropped? Is it not in play but if played without redropping subject to a penalty?

#2 is just a provocation and silly.

#3 if that ball is in a playable lie could it not be played subject to a penalty? Is it a wrong ball?


In fairness indeed. In fairness, the original comment was not intended to be a full exposition of the entire rules book. We often make statements in passing that are too casual for full scrutiny, but make a point sufficient to the point in discussion.

Why do these discussions devolve into a show off fest, when all the OP did was make a casual comment.

 

[duncan mackie]

We often make statements in passing that are too casual for full scrutiny, but make a point sufficient to the point in discussion.

my issue is that they do not make the point sufficient to the point in discussion!

if you wish me to stay more on topic I will

Originally Posted by delc
Going back to the original posting in this thread, a teed ball is not in play until you make a stroke at it. In all other circumstances a ball on the ground is in play.

I am playing a par 3 and place my ball on the ground rather than on a tee.......it's not in play!!!

If I take a practice swing and accidentally hit my ball there is no penalty, it doesn't matter if it's teed or on the ground.

I stand by my view that such soundbites of the rules do more to bite than help/clarify.

 

[North Mimms]

I'm very very confused now.

In the original decision that I quoted in first post "teed" means a ball on the teeing ground?
Surely it is still considered teed if you put it on a handy tuft of grass?