Provisional ball tricky situation

[delc]

Suppose you hit your original ball 260 yards into the cabbage and then top a provisional ball 100 yards down the middle. You can continue with the provisional ball until you reach or go further (closer to the hole) than where the original ball is likely to be. If you find the original in bounds within 5 minutes, then it is still the ball in play and you must continue with it, even if unplayable, when the normal options apply. You are not forced to search for 5 minutes; you can now just walk up to the Provo ball and play that, accepting a stroke and distance penalty, with the original ball being lost.

 

[atticusfinch]

accepting a stroke and distance penalty,.

Plus all the strokes you have made with the provisional ball.

 

[delc]

The provisional ball rule seems to be very misunderstood. It is simply a way of saving time if your original ball may be lost or out of bounds, but not in a water hazard. You have to declare that you are playing a provisional ball to your marker, fellow competitors or opponents and do so before going forward to search. Otherwise you are putting another ball into play with a stroke and distance penalty under rule 27-1a and your original ball is automatically out of play (lost). Please note that playing 3 off the tee does not count as a provisional ball without the declaration, as I have been involved in several rules disputes about this issue. Also, once you have gone significantly forward to search you cannot go back to play a provisional ball, because that option has now gone.

 

[Colin L]

Suppose you hit your original ball 260 yards into the cabbage and then top a provisional ball 100 yards down the middle. You can continue with the provisional ball until you reach or go further (closer to the hole) than where the original ball is likely to be. If you find the original in bounds within 5 minutes, then it is still the ball in play and you must continue with it, even if unplayable, when the normal options apply. You are not forced to search for 5 minutes; you can now just walk up to the Provo ball and play that, accepting a stroke and distance penalty, with the original ball being lost.

Atticus seems to have managed to make more sense of this than I can.

Del, I don’t think you are yourself confused, but you do come out with some very confused and confusing statements.

 

[delc]

Atticus seems to have managed to make more sense of this than I can.

Del, I don’t think you are yourself confused, but you do come out with some very confused and confusing statements.

I think I have stated exactly what the rules of golf say. In the instance I described, suppose it took 2 shots with the provisional ball to get closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. If you proceed with provisional you add one penalty shot plus the original shot (stroke and distance), so you have played 4 and your next shot will be your 5th. If you find and continue with the original ball, then all shots with the provisional ball are disregarded and you are playing your 2nd shot. So there is some incentive to find your original ball. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Twire]

I think I have stated exactly what the rules of golf say. In the instance I described, suppose it took 2 shots with the provisional ball to get closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. If you proceed with provisional you add one penalty shot plus the original shot (stroke and distance), so you have played 4 and your next shot will be your 5th. If you find and continue with the original ball, then all shots with the provisional ball are disregarded and you are playing your 2nd shot. So there is some incentive to find your original ball. Seems pretty simple to me.

You're confusing in as much as your explanations are not worded correctly.

This is a quote from your post number 21 "You can continue with the provisional ball until you reach or go further (closer to the hole) than where the original ball is likely to be". Where in fact your have to make a stroke with your provisional closer to the hole. Now I know what you meant because I know the rule, but someone who doesn't could interpret that as if you knock your provisional upto or even past where you think your first is, then that's the ball in play. So precise wording is important.

 

[delc]

You're confusing in as much as your explanations are not worded correctly.

This is a quote from your post number 21 "You can continue with the provisional ball until you reach or go further (closer to the hole) than where the original ball is likely to be". Where in fact your have to make a stroke with your provisional closer to the hole. Now I know what you meant because I know the rule, but someone who doesn't could interpret that as if you knock your provisional upto or even past where you think your first is, then that's the ball in play. So precise wording is important.

It can become the ball in play if you don't search for the original, or can't find it, but you are effectively adding 2 strokes to your score, so there is usually some incentive to find the original, even if you have to hack it out sideways from deep rough with a wedge. There are occasions when it may be better not to search too hard!

P.S. You are not allowed to declare a ball lost. It only becomes lost by not finding it within 5 minutes, or by putting another ball into play under Rule 27-1. Otherwise, if it is found by anybody in bounds within 5 minutes, the original ball is still in play and the provisional ball must be abondoned.

 

[Twire]

It can become the ball in play if you don't search for the original, but you are effectively adding 2 strokes to your score, so there is usually some incentive to find the original, even if you have to hack it out sideways from deep rough with a wedge. There are occasions when it may be better not to search!

Where's that 'bang head against a brick wall' smiley.

 

[Colin L]

You're confusing in as much as your explanations are not worded correctly.

This is a quote from your post number 21 "You can continue with the provisional ball until you reach or go further (closer to the hole) than where the original ball is likely to be". Where in fact your have to make a stroke with your provisional closer to the hole. Now I know what you meant because I know the rule, but someone who doesn't could interpret that as if you knock your provisional upto or even past where you think your first is, then that's the ball in play. So precise wording is important.

Thanks for that. I was rushing to go out and didn’t have time to go into exactly where the confusions lie. That was certainly one of them!

 

[duncan mackie]

You are not allowed to declare a ball lost. It only becomes lost by not finding it within 5 minutes, or by putting another ball into play under Rule 27-1. Otherwise, if it is found by anybody in bounds within 5 minutes, the original ball is still in play and the provisional ball must be abondoned.

You are doing it again!!!

It also becomes lost if you make a stroke at your provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than your original ball was likely to be and, for the sake of absolute completeness, if you remove your provisional ball from the hole (being played), even if the 5 minutes haven't elapsed.

 

[delc]

You are doing it again!!!

It also becomes lost if you make a stroke at your provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than your original ball was likely to be and, for the sake of absolute completeness, if you remove your provisional ball from the hole (being played), even if the 5 minutes haven't elapsed.

So I now have two people telling me I'm wrong for two different reasons! I will reiterate that a provisional ball becomes in play if the original ball if not found within 5 minutes of starting the search, is found out out of bounds, or you play a shot with the provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole than where the provisional ball is likely to be. However, as I have already pointed out, this will cost you a stroke and distance penalty, effectively 2 shots, so if you find the original ball you are usually better off playing that.

 

[Colin L]

So I now have two people telling me I'm wrong for two different reasons! I will reiterate that a provisional ball becomes in play if the original ball if not found within 5 minutes of starting the search, is found out out of bounds, or you play a shot with the provisional ball from a spot closer to the hole than where the provisional ball is likely to be. However, as I have already pointed out, this will cost you a stroke and distance penalty, effectively 2 shots, so if you find the original ball you are usually better off playing that.

For goodness sake, Del, put away your shovel and stop digging holes. You are not reiterating what you said in the statement Duncan took issue with - you are adding to it. You wrote:

You are not allowed to declare a ball lost. It only becomes lost by not finding it within 5 minutes, or by putting another ball into play under Rule 27-1.

That, as Duncan pointed out, is wrong because it missed out other ways in which a ball becomes “lost” - in particular by playing a provisional ball from nearer the hole. Now you supposedly repeat what you said but in fact slip in the bit that was missing and try to gloss it over with that diversionary “However, as I already pointed out .....” Sneaky but unsuccessful.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

How could I miss that decision ...
Thanks! So, the picking the ball up from the hole is relevant, very cool and can be really funny to see the guy running to pick from the hole and the other guy running to the bush to search for the original one

Is that right? Doesn't the decision say that picking the ball out of the hole makes it the ball in play, but only if the first ball hasn't been found within the allotted minutes. So don't you have 5 minutes to look for it regardless of whether it's picked out of the hole or not? The latter element is quite clear to me.

 

[rosecott]

Is that right? Doesn't the decision say that picking the ball out of the hole makes it the ball in play, but only if the first ball hasn't been found within the allotted minutes. So don't you have 5 minutes to look for it regardless of whether it's picked out of the hole or not? The latter element is quite clear to me.

A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.


Already is the defining word.

 

[delc]

For goodness sake, Del, put away your shovel and stop digging holes. You are not reiterating what you said in the statement Duncan took issue with - you are adding to it. You wrote:

You are not allowed to declare a ball lost. It only becomes lost by not finding it within 5 minutes, or by putting another ball into play under Rule 27-1.

That, as Duncan pointed out, is wrong because it missed out other ways in which a ball becomes “lost” - in particular by playing a provisional ball from nearer the hole. Now you supposedly repeat what you said but in fact slip in the bit that was missing and try to gloss it over with that diversionary “However, as I already pointed out .....” Sneaky but unsuccessful.

I have always understood that if the original ball is found in bounds within 5 minutes of starting the search, then it remains you continue with that and disregard the shots played with the provisional ball. Surely playing a shot with the Provo ball from nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be only applies if the original ball has not been found. Having said that, there is nothing in the rules to say how hard you have to search, or that you have to search for the full 5 minutes.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.


Already is the defining word.

Thanks. That makes sense as it's the same as the ball being declared lost if you play the provisional at a point beyond the place the first ball is lost.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks. That makes sense as it's the same as the ball becoming lost if you play the provisional at a point beyond the place the first ball is lost.

Yes

 

[rulefan]

the ball being declared lost if you play the provisional at a point beyond the place the first ball is lost.

To be pedantic it is deemed lost not declared lost. The latter requires some form of announcement. The former doesn't - it just is, by virtue of the rule.

 

[duncan mackie]

To be pedantic it is deemed lost not declared lost. The latter requires some form of announcement. The former doesn't - it just is, by virtue of the rule.

Not pedantic - I should have highlighted the minor change I made when quoting ( but don't know how on this tablet! )

 

[delc]

Rule 27-2c seems to cover this situation.