Provisional ball tricky situation

[dejf]

Hi, this actually did not happen to me (yet?) but it is a situation I am unsure about, so please could you help me find the right answers?

Let's say you are playing par 4 to uphill green. Your second shot is bad, you slice it into heavy the stuff. You play provisional ball and it is OK - "somewhere to the green".

In fact, your second shot is in the hole for a lovely par, but you don't know it.

Questions:

a) What if you find the first ball and play it? Do you have 4 because the hole was finished (with provisional ball) or does your first ball score counts?

b) What if you like the second shot and do not want to search for it, but your opponent goes and finds it?

c) In b) if the provisional ball was not in the hole, you could play a shot closer to the hole than the first ball aprox. was and thus make it lost. So if you did that before it was found, further searching is not relevant. But if it is in the hole, you can not easily do that. So can you really say that you finished the hole with the provisional ball or do you have to go and play the first one? Is it relevant if you pick up the ball from the hole before the first one is found by your opponent?

 

[Matty]

As far as I understand the rules regarding a provisional ball:

a) if you find your first ball, it is the ball in play and you must continue with it, the provisional is no longer in play and strokes made with it don't count.

b) you are not required to look for a provisional but if your opponent or fellow player looks and finds it within the allocated five minutes you must play with that first ball.

c) you can't declare a ball lost - it becomes lost when it cannot be found after 5 minutes of looking. After 5 minutes of an opponent looking and failing to find the ball (and you don't have to join the search) then the provisional is considered in play - either for the next stroke - or if holed.

I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

 

[rosecott]

This decision is what you need:

~[h=2]27-2b/2[/h] [h=4]When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play[/h] Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

 

[Foxholer]

This decision is what you need:

~[h=2]27-2b/2[/h] [h=4]When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play[/h] Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

And I have experienced exactly this situation - as the FC! We both played provisionals, mine being just off the green his disappearing into the hole. I didn't hurry!

 

[dejf]

How could I miss that decision ...
Thanks! So, the picking the ball up from the hole is relevant, very cool and can be really funny to see the guy running to pick from the hole and the other guy running to the bush to search for the original one

 

[rulefan]

It certainly helps out with pace of play problems

 

[williamalex1]

How could I miss that decision ...
Thanks! So, the picking the ball up from the hole is relevant, very cool and can be really funny to see the guy running to pick from the hole and the other guy running to the bush to search for the original one

So a ball in the hand is worth 2 ,3 or 4 in the bush

 

[dejf]

So, the original questions are clear now, thanks all.

Please allow me to continue with one additional question related to this.

So again, let's assume the first ball is somewhere in the heavy stuff and the provisional ball is OK, but it is NOT holed. It is a stroke play and FC goes to look for the first ball into the rough. Is it possible for the player to play out of turn (i.e. FC's ball is farther from the hole) without a penalty in order to make the first ball lost? From 10-3c it seems there is no problem with it, but is it really OK?

 

[delc]

So, the original questions are clear now, thanks all.

Please allow me to continue with one additional question related to this.

So again, let's assume the first ball is somewhere in the heavy stuff and the provisional ball is OK, but it is NOT holed. It is a stroke play and FC goes to look for the first ball into the rough. Is it possible for the player to play out of turn (i.e. FC's ball is farther from the hole) without a penalty in order to make the first ball lost? From 10-3c it seems there is no problem with it, but is it really OK?

Generally the rule is that if you play a provisional ball but find the original in bounds, then you have to play the original. If you really don't like the look of the original ball, just play another shot under stroke an distance penalty and don't use the words 'provisional ball'. There is no specific penalty for playing out of turn, but in Matchplay your opponent can ask you to retake your shot, especially if it's a good one!

 

[rulefan]

So, the original questions are clear now, thanks all.

Please allow me to continue with one additional question related to this.

So again, let's assume the first ball is somewhere in the heavy stuff and the provisional ball is OK, but it is NOT holed. It is a stroke play and FC goes to look for the first ball into the rough. Is it possible for the player to play out of turn (i.e. FC's ball is farther from the hole) without a penalty in order to make the first ball lost? From 10-3c it seems there is no problem with it, but is it really OK?

Yes. There is no penalty in this situation for playing out of turn. However, remember the provisional is still the provisional until you make a stroke at it when it is at or beyond where your original is thought to be. So if your provisional was short of your original, your original is still the ball in play.

 

[delc]

So, the original questions are clear now, thanks all.

Please allow me to continue with one additional question related to this.

So again, let's assume the first ball is somewhere in the heavy stuff and the provisional ball is OK, but it is NOT holed. It is a stroke play and FC goes to look for the first ball into the rough. Is it possible for the player to play out of turn (i.e. FC's ball is farther from the hole) without a penalty in order to make the first ball lost? From 10-3c it seems there is no problem with it, but is it really OK?

Just to clarify, playing out of turn will not change the status of a provisional ball. A provisional ball becomes in play if the original ball is not found within 5 minutes, is found out of bounds, or you play a shot with the provisional ball from a position closer to the hole than where the original is likely to be.

 

[Foxholer]

So, the original questions are clear now, thanks all.

Please allow me to continue with one additional question related to this.

So again, let's assume the first ball is somewhere in the heavy stuff and the provisional ball is OK, but it is NOT holed. It is a stroke play and FC goes to look for the first ball into the rough. Is it possible for the player to play out of turn (i.e. FC's ball is farther from the hole) without a penalty in order to make the first ball lost? From 10-3c it seems there is no problem with it, but is it really OK?

That would apply more to Matchplay - where the Provo is (say) close to the hole, but the Oppo would prefer the player to have to use the original! If the Provo is played before the Oppo has 'found' the original, the Oppo can demand that the player replays the shot - in the proper sequence - but the Provo has now become the ball in play (because it was played from nearer the hole than the original).

In Strokeplay, the FC is simply being an ass! As I stated in my 'Hole-in-3' case, I didn't hurry to find the original! As the 2-stroke cost is 'reasonable', I even tend to ask 'do you want me to look for the original?' expecting 'No Thanks' as a reply.

 

[delc]

The Rules relating to lost and provisional balls are 27-1 and 27-2.

 

[duncan mackie]

Just to clarify, playing out of turn will not change the status of a provisional ball.

Far from a clarification, and more of a contradiction...

As foxy has gone on to post, and you include in you reply - playing the ball from a position closer to the hole does change the status of the provisional. That it's out of turn is irrelevant to this fundamental.

 

[delc]

Far from a clarification, and more of a contradiction...

As foxy has gone on to post, and you include in you reply - playing the ball from a position closer to the hole does change the status of the provisional. That it's out of turn is irrelevant to this fundamental.

Isn't that what I said? I have outlined all the cases when a provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

 

[duncan mackie]

Isn't that what I said? I have outlined all the cases when a provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

No its not.

You stated, as I quoted, you quote my quote here, and I'll quote again....

"playing out of turn will not change the status of a provisional ball" which is incorrect in the context being discussed.

You then (correctly) go on to state that making a stroke at a provisional ball etc will change it's status.

Hardly bringing clarity

 

[delc]

No its not.

You stated, as I quoted, you quote my quote here, and I'll quote again....

"playing out of turn will not change the status of a provisional ball" which is incorrect in the context being discussed.

You then (correctly) go on to state that making a stroke at a provisional ball etc will change it's status.

Hardly bringing clarity

Yes, but playing out of turn is only in relation to your fellow competitor(s) or opponent(s), which should have no effect on the status of a provisional ball. Admittedly in Matchplay an opponent can require you to replay the shot if you play out of turn.

 

[rulie]

Yes, but playing out of turn is only in relation to your fellow competitor(s) or opponent(s), which should have no effect on the status of a provisional ball. Admittedly in Matchplay an opponent can require you to replay the shot if you play out of turn.

But, even when played out of turn, it does change the status of the provisional ball from provisional to ball in play and makes the original ball lost.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But, even when played out of turn, it does change the status of the provisional ball from provisional to ball in play and makes the original ball lost.

Interesting that - but thinking about it - a ball must be 'in play' to have been 'played out of turn'. And so the provisional (closer to, or in, the hole than the original) - even when 'played out of turn' is 'in play' and therefore the original is kaput/gorn/oop (unless found within 5mins...)

 

[atticusfinch]

Hi, this actually did not happen to me (yet?) but it is a situation I am unsure about, so please could you help me find the right answers?

A provisional ball is just that, only provisionally in play, until one of the specified conditions in the rule occur. Until then the original is in play and must be played unless it is rendered lost or is OB.

If one of the conditions does occur then the provisional ball is the ball in play under stroke and distance. So the provisional is holed with four strokes.