MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Up to date decisions are on the R&A Rules explorer
http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/Rules-Explorer
Also available as an App
http://apps.randa.org/Apps
Up to date decisions are on the R&A Rules explorer
http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/Rules-Explorer
Also available as an App
http://apps.randa.org/Apps
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
I will try and pull it together, and then propose a ruling. Interested in whether Colin and others agree.
The order and timing become relevant if the player had, mistakenly, returned to proceed under 27-2.
On the basis that the ball was found, but not identified by the player, after he dropped but before 5 minutes but that the FC deliberately didn't advise the player until after he had played the ball he dropped I would rule (1-4 because I can't find a relevant ruling!) that the player was entitled to continue with the original ball and that his score with that ball should count.
If he's played a stroke at the dropped ball before the original was found its clearcut - Original is lost and the player is deemed to have played under 27-1.
If it's found after 5 mins the same applies.
I don't like 1-4 rulings because in the back of my mind I always feel everything has happened before and there will be a ruling hidden somewhere.
Thoughts?
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I believe these are the definitions/rules quoted in thread
27-2a/5 Player Intends to Drop Provisional Ball After Search for Original Ball Has Commenced; Original Ball Found Within Five Minutes Before Dropped Ball Played
Q.A player searches for his ball for three minutes and then announces that he will return to play a provisional ball. The player drops the ball that he has announced as a provisional ball and then, prior to making a stroke with the provisional ball, the original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?
A.As the player had gone forward to search for his original ball, he was not entitled to play a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a. Consequently, as the procedure adopted by the player when dropping the ball was not in accordance with the Rules, he was entitled to correct his error under Rule 20-6 and continue play with the original ball, without penalty, from where it was found.
If the player did not correct his error under Rule 20-6 and made a stroke with the dropped ball, that ball became the ball in play under penalty of stroke-and-distance (see Rule 27-1a). (New)
20-6. Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped or Placed
A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.
The only bits I would add/ask to all the help given are as follows:
I couldn't state 100% either way if the 5 minutes had been exceeded or not.
Whose responsibility is it to actually time the 5 minutes.
We didn't intentionally let him play the provisional knowing he was breaking any rules we were doing it to allow him to play 2 balls rather than getting it totally wrong and him being dq'd
27-2a/5 Player Intends to Drop Provisional Ball After Search for Original Ball Has Commenced; Original Ball Found Within Five Minutes Before Dropped Ball Played
Q.A player searches for his ball for three minutes and then announces that he will return to play a provisional ball. The player drops the ball that he has announced as a provisional ball and then, prior to making a stroke with the provisional ball, the original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?
A.As the player had gone forward to search for his original ball, he was not entitled to play a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a. Consequently, as the procedure adopted by the player when dropping the ball was not in accordance with the Rules, he was entitled to correct his error under Rule 20-6 and continue play with the original ball, without penalty, from where it was found.
If the player did not correct his error under Rule 20-6 and made a stroke with the dropped ball, that ball became the ball in play under penalty of stroke-and-distance (see Rule 27-1a). (New)
20-6. Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped or Placed
A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.
The only bits I would add/ask to all the help given are as follows:
I couldn't state 100% either way if the 5 minutes had been exceeded or not.
Whose responsibility is it to actually time the 5 minutes.
We didn't intentionally let him play the provisional knowing he was breaking any rules we were doing it to allow him to play 2 balls rather than getting it totally wrong and him being dq'd
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
"...as he addressed his second ball and before he played it I found his first ball, I was about to shout when the 3rd guy in our group told me not to, as, as he had abandoned the search and gone back to play another he had in fact declared the first ball lost, I disagreed and thought so long as he was in the five minutes we had found his ball he coukd play the now found ball..."
You original wording, and even your new one, make it clear that it was a deliberate, or intentional, act. One that in the context of the last sentence of the rule you have quoted resulted in that ball being his ball in play.
Deliberate, or intentional is not about blame here, it's about protecting the interests of the player and the field. There is a difference in playing that ball under 3-3 after invoking it - you can't invoke it retrospectively. By not drawing his attention to it before he played, ie involving him in the decision, you removed this option.
Mitchell89
Club Champion
I had a similar situation happen to me in a match last week. My opponent hit his approach shot and I didn't see it but he is happy with it. We go up to the green and we can't find his ball. I didn't have a watch but felt well over 5 minutes. There are 2 players behind us so we wave them through and my opponent goes back to play another. As the guys playing through come past one of them spots the ball in thick rough because his ball was very close to it. By this point it's been around 15 minutes as the guys playing through are making a meal of it.
Should I have called the ball dead? I didn't say anything at the time because I wasn't sure on the rule and felt like it wasn't in the spirit on the game.
Also when does the 5 minutes start? After you have hit your shot or when you start to look?
Thanks
Should I have called the ball dead? I didn't say anything at the time because I wasn't sure on the rule and felt like it wasn't in the spirit on the game.
Also when does the 5 minutes start? After you have hit your shot or when you start to look?
Thanks
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Fair one Duncan and certainly an education, as he was adressing and I agreed not to shout, I took it as not shouting so as not to put him off his shot and him duffing it.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I believe the 5 minutes start when you reach the search area. Not sure of exact wording.
Colin L
Tour Winner
The timing starts when the player, his partner or his caddie starts searching.
scubascuba3
Assistant Pro
That decisions link doesn't seem to work.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Is working for me. It should take you to the Rules Explorer where you can see the Rules and related decisions (numbers in blue circles). Browser issue? Otherwise go to the main R&A site and click on "Explore the Rules" in the menu under the Rules and Equipment Tab.
http://www.randa.org/
rulefan
Tour Winner
Many referees prefer this site
www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rules-and-Decisions/
Same rules of course but the spelling can be iffy.
