PRIVATE MEMBERS CLUBS - Turning away business!!

[chrisd]

I have to say I am with you on this one Shiney. I cant understand why clubs are not snapping your hand off for a 10% cut for that kind of deal. They are getting 40 golfers paying then on top of that drinks and spends in the shop for the pro etc and they don't have to organise anything. Good value for all concerned. As for everyone else who thinks 10% is too much how much do you think Golfbreak, Your golf travel, tee off times, direct tee times and travelzoo and groupon make from these deals. Its more than 10%. Brokers are a pain in most businesses but they seem to do OK in the golf industry. Oh and welcome to the forum.

Private members clubs have a real balancing act and most don't want 40 golfers who have booked through someone else to pitch up and think they've bought the place. It isn't about the 10%, its about balancing the members wishes with the needs of outside guests. If a society books a game they generally have some players who are the organisers and problems, if they arise, can get sorted. If an outside agent books I suspect any problems are much harder to resolve.

 

[Shiney1983]

Ger, thanks for informing me of the pro status. We all learn from somewhere or someone. What's even funnier is that a club will not pay us 10% commission on a booking, but more than happy to fork out a £30k retainer to their head pro, pay all their all rates and overheads and a commission on the green fees more than likely!! YES you are correct, these clubs have no business sense what so ever!!

 

[Shiney1983]

Hi Chrisd, I have to disagree, when we book a venue on behalf of a client, I am in constant contact with the club / secretary to ensure everything is in place, and if you flip it round and something goes wrong from the clubs side, I very quickly become a friend to them as I understand things do wrong from all angles sometimes.

 

[Twire]

Some clubs will be happy for your bookings and pay your commission, some won't, that's business. It's no use moaning about it, it's their right to choose whether to take your gift or not.

 

[BoadieBroadus]

In spite of all I've said, yes I am slightly surprised that they didn't take the booking as 10% seems a reasonable discount for a group that size and at that time. But they presumably have a reason for their prices and on this occasion it wasn't met.

 

[chrisd]

Thanks Lincoln, Glad to hear that there is someone who understand the industry. ;-)

To be fair Shiney, I think we pretty well all understand the industry as well as how private members clubs are run. Please don't make the mistake of suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you does so from a misunderstanding of what you offer.


I think there is a definite place for agents in booking golf breaks but happen to think that your original post is not as understanding of the needs of, and how, a private members club is run and how many choose to earn its revenue and doesn't therefore accept that we don't just want money from any source for survival

 

[Shiney1983]

Fully agree, my post was not necessary a moan in such, but more to generate a response and see other peoples point of views. But as a business model and an additional stream of income for a golf club looking for outside revenue or to fill its quota for the year, I am just amazed by the amount of shut doors we have had based on a 10% agreement. Basic business principle, buy in bulk for less. I control £2million pounds of corporate spend, why not open your door to us and then just be picky about when you want to take our business rather than just say NO.

 

[chrisd]

Ger, thanks for informing me of the pro status. We all learn from somewhere or someone. What's even funnier is that a club will not pay us 10% commission on a booking, but more than happy to fork out a £30k retainer to their head pro, pay all their all rates and overheads and a commission on the green fees more than likely!! YES you are correct, these clubs have no business sense what so ever!!

I can't see what the payment of a retainer to the pro (which is way less than 30k in our club) has to do with the issue. We have a PGA pro for loads of reasons not connected with bookings and societies.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I pay a not insignificant amount each year for a private members club. Not a top 100 (or even top 200) and no aspirations to be so. It exists for the members and the price of the fees dictated to a degree by the neighbours (Swinley, Mill Ride, Wentworth, Berkshire, Sand Martins, Bearwood Lakes) and we are cheaper than these and have attracted a significant influx of new members. I would be far from happy, especially with the club operating a no tee time policy to find significant increases in the number of society and block bookings. We do take socieities and green fees but these are monitored and in the case of socieities normally return business and to be honest the status quo is about right. I know at least one of the courses I mentioned which has lost a lot of members this year as their membership simply cannot get out to play as there are too many green fees and societies both midweek and weekends

From a purely selfish perspective I would want whatever revenue is generated from our bookings to remain in house. We aren't particularly proactive at advertising but the word is obviously out there. I can see how your business model works but don't see how it fits into the requirements of my own club

 

[Shiney1983]

Id like to be at the agm when the accounts are discussed.

Societies 15000
Commission on that 1500

I can see a lot of unhappy people thinking the club are giving money away.

Yeah the unhappy members are the ones who don't have the task, responsibility or the job to ensure income levels are met to ensure members fees are kept as low as possible, but at the same time the whole facilities are improved year on year. You put 7 members all who own their own successful businesses on the board of any committee and see what they say to such an agreement. I would be amazed it its was perceived as a poor arrangement.

 

[Shiney1983]

I pay a not insignificant amount each year for a private members club. Not a top 100 (or even top 200) and no aspirations to be so. It exists for the members and the price of the fees dictated to a degree by the neighbours (Swinley, Mill Ride, Wentworth, Berkshire, Sand Martins, Bearwood Lakes) and we are cheaper than these and have attracted a significant influx of new members. I would be far from happy, especially with the club operating a no tee time policy to find significant increases in the number of society and block bookings. We do take socieities and green fees but these are monitored and in the case of socieities normally return business and to be honest the status quo is about right. I know at least one of the courses I mentioned which has lost a lot of members this year as their membership simply cannot get out to play as there are too many green fees and societies both midweek and weekends

From a purely selfish perspective I would want whatever revenue is generated from our bookings to remain in house. We aren't particularly proactive at advertising but the word is obviously out there. I can see how your business model works but don't see how it fits into the requirements of my own club

Hi Homer, I agree, a course that needs no money from society fees is not a venue of choice for us to work with, but a lot of the clubs I have had shut doors from I simply do not believe are in this situation. I of course can be very wrong about this. However, when a time comes when maybe one of these clubs does need to focus on generating more income, a golf agency is far more effective and productive than any general advertising spend or effort by the club secretary when he has all of his other duties to fulfil. Would you agree?

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Private members clubs have a real balancing act and most don't want 40 golfers who have booked through someone else to pitch up and think they've bought the place. It isn't about the 10%, its about balancing the members wishes with the needs of outside guests. If a society books a game they generally have some players who are the organisers and problems, if they arise, can get sorted. If an outside agent books I suspect any problems are much harder to resolve.

Most have members times and times for visitors so cant really understand how 40 golfers can ever be an issue. As for organising all the clubs I have ever booked societies with never get involved as they leave it all to the organiser. Most clubs seem to be down on membership so the only way to balance the books is corporate and societies.

 

[Shiney1983]

I can't see what the payment of a retainer to the pro (which is way less than 30k in our club) has to do with the issue. We have a PGA pro for loads of reasons not connected with bookings and societies.

Loads of reasons that sees the pro earn money and does he give any of this back to the club or does it all go through his shop? just some food for thought. Guess I am just jealous that I didn't go pro and get paid a hefty fee at the start of the year and have all of MY business overheads paid for, with out paying any rent and take a COMMISSION on green fees.

 

[G.U.R]

Would it not be better to email/Call Clubs upfront say what you are doing say what you charge then place all the Clubs with positive feedback "on your books" as it were then offer these to Society's rather than bemoaning Club's that don't want your business for whatever reason.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Some clubs will be happy for your bookings and pay your commission, some won't, that's business. It's no use moaning about it, it's their right to choose whether to take your gift or not.

Is the right answer :thup:

 

[chrisd]

Yeah the unhappy members are the ones who don't have the task, responsibility or the job to ensure income levels are met to ensure members fees are kept as low as possible, but at the same time the whole facilities are improved year on year. You put 7 members all who own their own successful businesses on the board of any committee and see what they say to such an agreement. I would be amazed it its was perceived as a poor arrangement.

You are coming from a stance that members want their fees as low as possible and that is their primary concern. Sorry, but what most want is a good course at a fair price, well run and as full of members as is necessary. They want only enough green fees and societies as is necessary to top up the coffers but not too much as to clog the course up when they choose to play. When I was on the committee of my club, most of the elected members were successful business men and some accountants and solicitors too. I would be amazed if we had changed direction and booked through an agent then, as much as I don't think we would today, not least, because the members wouldn't approve and before you suggest otherwise we are a working persons club and not a snooty Wentworth

 

[Twire]

Yeah the unhappy members are the ones who don't have the task, responsibility or the job to ensure income levels are met to ensure members fees are kept as low as possible, but at the same time the whole facilities are improved year on year. You put 7 members all who own their own successful businesses on the board of any committee and see what they say to such an agreement. I would be amazed it its was perceived as a poor arrangement.

I have had my own engineering business for 20 years, I'm always being hassled by middle men who can give me plenty of work for a price. After a polite thanks but no thanks, they tend to go into the "you must be doing well to turn work away" or the "more money than sense" approach. But I can honestly say, I've never had to buy work in my 20 years, and I'm proud of that. 20 years on and I'm still making a good living.... god I must be a poor businessman.

 

[Shiney1983]

Would it not be better to email/Call Clubs upfront say what you are doing say what you charge then place all the Clubs with positive feedback "on your books" as it were then offer these to Society's rather than bemoaning Club's that don't want your business for whatever reason.

Hello G.U.R, this has already been done, but with circa 3500 clubs in the uk, this is not a job done in one day. Sometimes I have to have this conversation when making the actual enquiry.

 

[Shiney1983]

You are coming from a stance that members want their fees as low as possible and that is their primary concern. Sorry, but what most want is a good course at a fair price, well run and as full of members as is necessary. They want only enough green fees and societies as is necessary to top up the coffers but not too much as to clog the course up when they choose to play. When I was on the committee of my club, most of the elected members were successful business men and some accountants and solicitors too. I would be amazed if we had changed direction and booked through an agent then, as much as I don't think we would today, not least, because the members wouldn't approve and before you suggest otherwise we are a working persons club and not a snooty Wentworth

Ok, so if you said to all the members lets increase fees by £500 a year and we will have no visitors our outside revenue, do you think membership would decrease, stay level, or increase?

 

[Shiney1983]

I have had my own engineering business for 20 years, I'm always being hassled by middle men who can give me plenty of work for a price. After a polite thanks but no thanks, they tend to go into the "you must be doing well to turn work away" or the "more money than sense" approach. But I can honestly say, I've never had to buy work in my 20 years, and I'm proud of that. 20 years on and I'm still making a good living.... god I must be a poor businessman.

Twire, that's great and please do not get me wrong, I understand middle men are not key to every business in the world, but the golf members industry has been on its arse for a few years now as a whole, and I just feel the smart clubs would be taking everything they can get in preparation for the next bubble burst.