Colin L
Tour Winner
I'm not quite following the question. Bad hair day, it seems.
Practice on the course
- Thread starter sawtooth
- Start date
Not in reality though. Nobody knows, much less cares, about the parameters of 5.5b's Exception. Nobody in the history of golf has ever been penalised for breaching it, nor ever will be. Its a good example of the disjoint between the rules writers and those who play golf, why the rules are seen as a tangled mess that is too dense to even try getting to grips with.
rulefan
Tour Winner
The player find his ball in the jungle. He decides to pick up and not bother with the hole. He walks towards the hole with his ball in his hand. He then decides to drop the ball and play it.
1) He then makes another stroke at the ball, then another until he holes the ball.
2) He then makes another stroke at the ball and reaches the green where he picks up his ball and walks off.
3) He then makes another stroke at the ball which he hits OB or fluffs. He picks up his ball and walks off.
In which of these cases has he continued or practiced?
sawtooth
Tour Winner
I could have by the way played the hole to it conclusion and taken 20 "practice" shots totally legally. I don't think it's a rule breach to play on after you can't score so I can't see how it's a rule breach playing on the way I did.
Maybe it's a penalty for not dropping where I should have dropped?
Still zero points and not a DQ by the look of it.
I just don't think the rules cover what I did.
By the way it's the first and last time I will do this as its just not the done thing anyway, but again it's probably not a breach as far I can make out.
Maybe it's a penalty for not dropping where I should have dropped?
Still zero points and not a DQ by the look of it.
I just don't think the rules cover what I did.
By the way it's the first and last time I will do this as its just not the done thing anyway, but again it's probably not a breach as far I can make out.
doublebogey7
Head Pro
In each case I would be asking him what were his intentions.
salfordlad
Well-known member
If you are continuing play of a hole after the result is decided, you can cease play at any point. So Q2 and Q3 don't bring different angles - you are continuing or you are not.
For me, things get unclear when a player out of the hole heads to a different place and throws a ball down. Is that an issue? Maybe yes, maybe no and these judgement issues are a Committee call that may require a conversation with the player. "Why did you do it?" "Just playing out the hole with my buddies" is unlikely to be an issue unless the actions give lie to the statement, eg, player has moved forward to a measured distance and then thrown the ball down - here the player has chosen to make a shot from somewhere that is unrelated to simply continuing the hole and is effectively no different from using that same club to hit a ball sideways into the woods. Another likely problem would be the player has walked forward and thrown a ball down in a bunker. But, conversely, simply moving to a different spot and genuinely playing out the hole is unlikely to be a problem. The key here is there is no one size fits all.
RBs are very reluctant to offer general advice in spaces like this, because sometimes minor variation in the facts can produce a different answer.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
The hole might be over for him , but for others it’s not.
in 4bbb his partner may gain something from watching his ball land on the green or how his putt breaks even if not on the same line.
Rules are mostly black and white this seems very grey.
in 4bbb his partner may gain something from watching his ball land on the green or how his putt breaks even if not on the same line.
Rules are mostly black and white this seems very grey.
salfordlad
Well-known member
Partner play brings different issues into play. Commonly, the hole is not yet over, just one partner is out of play but the hole is continuing - so the 'out of the hole' player's further strokes cannot assist the partner.
Colin L
Tour Winner
As I see it, whether the player carries on to hole out or not is immaterial; either way it doesn't retrospectively determine whether he was continuing play or not. Any issue lies in where he played from and why after giving up on the hole or reaching the point where he couldn't gain a point in a stableford or had exceeded the maximum in a maximum score competition.
I'd suggest there is no problem with
- a player coming out of the deep stuff having lost his ball or picked up and carrying on playing from a point on the fairway around about the same distance from the hole as where his original ball was or was likely to be;
- a player searching on a bit while the others get on with playing their own balls, then walking forward whatever the distance required to drop a ball where they are - a safety and time-saving matter;
- a player givng up on a hole not knowing he was allowed to continue, joining the others and being told he could do so and playing from where they are;
- a player stuck in a bunker saying "I'm out of it" but carrying on with grim determination just for the satisfaction of eventually getting his ball out (cue Hamlet advert);
- a player putting down another ball to carry on with and saying "I'm out of it; I'll just play another ball for practice". that's arguable but he is allowed by the rules to continue play and he is simply wrong in thinking it is practice.
I'd suggest that problematic or undeniably wrong actions would stand out such as salfordad's example of walking on and then playing from a bunker. Or there being a significant gap between picking up and playing, measured perhaps by where the game had got to with the other players. For example, if the player picks up what would have been his second shot, a reasonable limit to his dropping another ball and playing it is where the others play their second shots from and at the same time as if that's where his first shot had gone.
The Committee/referee has to make a judgment on the circumstances of a particular instance and find the criteria on which to make it. How likely is it, though, for this to crop up? Maybe very very slight, but in golf it's best to recognise that if there is even a remote chance of something happening, it will happen somewhere, some day.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I agree
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Indeed as I saw it, otherwise I could pick up for whatever reason, and then when my group had reached the green and others still had to putt out, I chuck a ball down and have a putt myself.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Would you not think it Ok to have a practice putt as it is between holes and allowed under the Exception to Rule 5.5b? Common courtesy would of course dictate that you waited till the others holed out.
salfordlad
Well-known member
Just on your "nobody in the history of golf has ever been penalised...." thoughts, you might enjoy the link to a President's Cup incident: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2017/...-presidents-cup-after-practicing-bunker-shot/
sawtooth
Tour Winner
I wanted to play on rather than walk the rest of the hole.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Putting practice is allowed between holes once the hole has been completed - and surely that means by all players. Besides…I just can‘t see being allowed my picking my ball up say 100yds out as I’m out of the hole or can’t score…and then dropping it on the green and having a putt whilst others playing with me are still playing the hole.
rulie
Head Pro
There has been much consternation and discussion about "continuing play", but the current Rules do not use that description. The Rules use "playing out a hole...." instead.
Perhaps the change in wording was intentional and is significant?
Perhaps the change in wording was intentional and is significant?
salfordlad
Well-known member
I don't see consternation. I do see an interesting discussion about precisely what the Rule means in practical terms, a legitimate question for a rules-interested person. The limited explanation that used to be there has been curtailed further (like many other areas that saw the published material shortened from 2019). I think the switch to 'playing out a hole' is simply the shortening process to obviate the previous decision that answered what is 'continuing play of a hole'.
I think the issue is worth exploring with RBs for anyone that has an opportunity to attend formal workshops/rules courses and the like.
rulie
Head Pro
I agree there is some clarification needed regarding this -> singles Stableford, where Rule 21.1b(1) describes when a hole is completed (for scoring, according to the heading) and Rules 5.5a and 5.5b regarding practice. Rule 5.5a, however, is unequivocally clear in saying that strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided are not practice strokes. Rule 5.5b discusses restriction on practice strokes, which, imo, does not apply to strokes defined in 5.5a.
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Steven Rules
Well-known member
No. The Rules (incl 6.5, 21.1b(1) and 5.5b) define completion of a hole only in terms of an individual player, not in terms of where others in the group are up to in their own play of the hole. (Edit - it is different for four-ball though)
I think you are mixing rules and etiquette.
If you do that, the other players in the group will probably be pretty unhappy with you from an etiquette perspective. Also, if you are holding the others up in the process then you may also fall foul of the "must not unreasonably delay play" aspects of 5.5b.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
…but by my putting while others have still to putt could I be deemed to be providing advice - albeit non-verbal - to one or more others? And that’s against the rules.
