bobmac
Major Champion
To give an accurate answer to the original question, the position of the embedded ball has to be established, in the bunker or not. Do we all agree on that?
Plugged in a bunker face
- Thread starter mashleyR7
- Start date
rulefan
Tour Winner
Why include me in that reference? I haven't attacked anyone.
Colin L
Tour Winner
I certainly hope so and since the OP has confirmed that the ball wasn't in the bunker [post #8] the applicable rule is for an embedded ball in the general area [16.3]. Relief is not, however, allowed for a ball embedded in sand in a part of the general area that is not closely mown and so judging by the OP's description of the face, you'd have to take account of whether the ball was embedded in sand and if so whether the face of the bunker was closely mown or not. It's bit messy, really, and here we have the usual case of having to see it to make a judgment, I'd say.
bobmac
Major Champion
salfordlad
Well-known member
Yes, I shouldn't have, that was an error on my part.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Now that one introduces the potential problem of there being no relief area outside the bunker. Shall we go there?
salfordlad
Well-known member
Post #8 only indicates there was unprepared sand in the face of the 'bunker', so while more likely than not, we are not in a definitive position to say the ball is or is not in the bunker. Without seeing it, there are two possibilities. One is it is like the photo above, the face not being part of the bunker. The other is the face is part of the bunker and normally contains sand but is in a state of disrepair - ie it is "ground where sand normally would be" as discussed in rule 12.1. I agree that seeing it would be helpful (as I noted earlier) and if mashleyR7 is back in the area a photo would be useful.
I further note that affirming which area of the course the ball is at rest in is equally relevant to taking relief correctly from an embedded or an unplayable ball.
Colin L
Tour Winner
The OP who alone has actually seen this bunker was quite clear after considering the part of the Definition rulefan quoted that the ball was not in the bunker. That seems enough to me to give a clear answer.
williamalex1
Money List Winner
There was an old post here somewhere, referring to a ball embedded so far into the bunker face, that it was actually outside the confines of the bunker.
I think the drop was outside the bunker.
after 2 drops, placed.
I think the drop was outside the bunker.
after 2 drops, placed.
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salfordlad
Well-known member
I don't share your confidence that mashleyR7's post (#8) was "quite clear" that the ball was not in the bunker. My reason is #8 appeared to focus on rulefan's quoted bunker definition that starts "a bunker is a specially prepared area of sand....", with post #8 noting that the area the ball was in contained "unprepared sand". That is, mashleyR7 may have understood the bunker definition to mean that any "unprepared sand" in the face means that area cannot be part of a bunker. My subsequent posts sought to draw out that an area of unprepared sand may or may not be part of the bunker, as clearly affirmed in rule 12.1.
As mashleyR7 has not made a further posting since #8, I am unaware whether he has had an opportunity to consider the wording in 12.1 that advises that if a ball is on ground where sand would normally be then that ball is in the bunker, even if it is an area with bare dirt, growing stuff and unprepared sand.
As we have agreed, if experienced rules people could see this area, it would probably be a straightforward call. In any event, my earlier posts in this thread have provided information to help resolve whether the ball is in the bunker or general area and the relief rules that would apply in either case.
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salfordlad
Well-known member
My understanding is there is an official ruling to this effect and it is a significant change from pre-2019, when D13/4 used to apply - that old Decision, now rescinded, said an embedded ball is considered lying in the part of the course where it entered the ground.There was an old post here somewhere, referring to a ball embedded so far into the bunker face, that it was actually outside the confines of the bunker.
I think the drop was outside the bunker.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Have you missed this later clarification?
Rule 16.3b:
1. Player Not Always Allowed to Take Embedded Ball Relief:
If a player’s ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area, the player is not allowed to take free relief under Rule 16.3b.
For example, free relief is not allowed if:
- a ball is embedded at the very base of the lip, wall or face above a bunker,
- the spot right behind the ball is in the bunker and
- within one club-length of and not nearer the hole from that reference point, there is no part of the relief area that is in the general area. (Added 12/2018)
tobybarker
Active member
Has the OP given up yet?
salfordlad
Well-known member
This clarification is a different issue. Old world - ball embedding into a bunker but passing entirely through a bunker lip to be outside the bunker (the edges were measured vertically downwards) was considered to be lying in the part of the course where it landed. Now that same ball is considered outside the bunker.
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