Played with a rules 'expert'

[HawkeyeMS]

Good idea. Don't mention that it's a rules quiz though because you will outnumber the entrants.

Here's a few I hear far too often:

1. Removing a leaf from a tree on a practice swing is always a penalty.
2. You don't get relief from an abnormal ground condition if you haven't got a full swing without it there.
3. You can't move anything on the green if your ball isn't on it.
4. You can't putt while holding the flag.
5. Relief from a water hazard includes dropping the ball anywhere on the line it went in on.

Number 2 is actually true. If something other than the abnormal ground condition makes the stroke impracticable (e.g. there is a tree trunk preventing you from making a swing) then you don't get relief from the AGC.

 

[srixon 1]

I hit my ball in to a dryed out hazard, walked in, picked it up and dropped as per rule. FC was adamant I should have marked the position of the ball before I picked it up.... I asked him how I would have done this had the ditich been full of water...

Why did you not just play it from the hazard, no penalty shot then. Not your fault that there was no water in the hazard.

 

[chrisd]

Number 2 is actually true.

Sort of true, except that if you can play a shot, not necessarily a full one with the club you'd like to use, you have the right to relief.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Number 2 is actually true. If something other than the abnormal ground condition makes the stroke impracticable (e.g. there is a tree trunk preventing you from making a swing) then you don't get relief from the AGC.

EDIT: Of course, if all you are trying to do is chip, and you can do that without interference from anything other than the AGC, then clearly you don't need to be able to make a full swing, you just need to be able to play the shot you are going to play after you have taken relief.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Sort of true, except that if you can play a shot, not necessarily a full one with the club you'd like to use, you have the right to relief.

Wrong sir. Playing any stroke isn't the determining factor. For example, if the only shot you can play is a sideways or backsward one then you don't get relief as that would be considered an abnormal direction of play.

 

[chrisd]

EDIT: Of course, if all you are trying to do is chip, and you can do that without interference from anything other than the AGC, then clearly you don't need to be able to make a full swing, you just need to be able to play the shot you are going to play after you have taken relief.

I don't quite follow that, it's probably me being thick!

My understanding is that if you can play a shot at the ball in AGC then you are entitled to free relief, if, after taking the relief you can play a different shot with a different club you are perfectly entitled to do so if you wish. That may be what you are saying

 

[Spuddy]

There are 2 parts to the rule exception. The first says that if there's anything else that makes your stroke impractical then you can't take relief. Notice that it has no reference to direction of play. The second part says that you can't take relief if the abnormal ground condition only affects you if you are making an unreasonable stroke, swing, stance or direction.

The first part is for cases where you would normally have to take an unplayable lie. If there's a tree in front but you could go sideways then your desired stroke is sideways. It's not impractical and therefore relief can be taken. If that relief subsequently improves your line then you're in luck (see decision 25-1/B3).

 

[HawkeyeMS]

There are 2 parts to the rule exception. The first says that if there's anything else that makes your stroke impractical then you can't take relief. Notice that it has no reference to direction of play. The second part says that you can't take relief if the abnormal ground condition only affects you if you are making an unreasonable stroke, swing, stance or direction.

The first part is for cases where you would normally have to take an unplayable lie. If there's a tree in front but you could go sideways then your desired stroke is sideways. It's not impractical and therefore relief can be taken. If that relief subsequently improves your line then you're in luck (see decision 25-1/B3).

Direction of play is mentioned in the decisions, see 25-1b/21

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I don't quite follow that, it's probably me being thick!

My understanding is that if you can play a shot at the ball in AGC then you are entitled to free relief, if, after taking the relief you can play a different shot with a different club you are perfectly entitled to do so if you wish. That may be what you are saying

Probably me as usual trying to discuss the rules of which I am no expert when I don't have time to do so properly

 

[Spuddy]

Direction of play is mentioned in the decisions, see 25-1b/21

That decision refers to the 2nd part of the exception. In the example given, the stroke towards the green is impractical (for reasons unknown) and that the only reasonable shot is sideways. As this sideways shot is unaffected by the AGC then no relief is available.

 

[chrisd]

That decision refers to the 2nd part of the exception. In the example given, the stroke towards the green is impractical (for reasons unknown) and that the only reasonable shot is sideways. As this sideways shot is unaffected by the AGC then no relief is available.

Understood. I was working on the basis that the only shot available wasn't a full one with a completely different club than the player would like to use but the AGC still affected the shot. I do, however, understand the other considerations

 

[Region3]

An example might help explain how I understand the rule, and the mistake I've heard of being made.

Your stance is in an abnormal ground condition for a shot played towards the green.

If there is a tree 6" from your ball in a direct line to the green then clearly you wouldn't be playing that shot if the abnormal ground condition weren't present, so no free relief.

If you have a clear line to the green but a tree behind you prevents you making any more than half a backswing, you get relief.

I've heard of people being denied relief in the second situation because they didn't have a full swing.

 

[backwoodsman]

I hit my ball in to a dryed out hazard, walked in, picked it up and dropped as per rule. FC was adamant I should have marked the position of the ball before I picked it up.... I asked him how I would have done this had the ditich been full of water...

Take your point but how you would have marked it had it been full is not relevant - nor is the ball's position. For water hazards the only point of relevance is where the ball last crossed its margin.

 

[rosecott]

Wrong sir. Playing any stroke isn't the determining factor. For example, if the only shot you can play is a sideways or backsward one then you don't get relief as that would be considered an abnormal direction of play.

This has always been one of the most contentious issues. Here is one of the decisions:

"25-1b/22

Cast of Burrowing Animal Interferes with Sideways Stroke; When Relief Granted

Q. A ball is behind a tree so that a sideways stroke is the only reasonable stroke for the player. However, a cast made by a burrowing animal interferes with the backswing for a sideways stroke. Is the player entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b?

A. Yes, and if relief gets the player out from behind the tree, he is entitled to play towards the green."

 

[backwoodsman]

This has always been one of the most contentious issues. Here is one of the decisions:

"25-1b/22

Cast of Burrowing Animal Interferes with Sideways Stroke; When Relief Granted

Q. A ball is behind a tree so that a sideways stroke is the only reasonable stroke for the player. However, a cast made by a burrowing animal interferes with the backswing for a sideways stroke. Is the player entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b?

A. Yes, and if relief gets the player out from behind the tree, he is entitled to play towards the green."

Because the note does not preclude "abnormal", it precludes unnecessarily abnormal.

 

[rosecott]

That was my point. Hawkeye was adamantly denying any relief for a sideways shot.

 

[duncan mackie]

That was my point. Hawkeye was adamantly denying any relief for a sideways shot.

but then again, Hawkeye was incorrect

otoh he's illustrated perfectly how these issues arise in practice, and got the thread back on topic very well!

 

[rosecott]

but then again, Hawkeye was incorrect

otoh he's illustrated perfectly how these issues arise in practice, and got the thread back on topic very well!

And I say again, that was my point.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On the same topic but a different scenario.

My ball has come to rest under the lowest branches of a tree (a Leylandii). The lowest branches grow from the tree trunk horizontally about 1ft above ground level. Ground covering is the 'needle-drop' from the tree (is that an abnormal ground condition?). My ball is sitting in an animal scrape in that ground cover. I clearly cannot actually get to the ball to play a shot. Do I get relief? Relief would take me out from under the branches of the tree to a position where I would be able to play a shot.

 

[rosecott]

On the same topic but a different scenario.

My ball has come to rest under the lowest branches of a tree (a Leylandii). The lowest branches grow from the tree trunk horizontally about 1ft above ground level. Ground covering is the 'needle-drop' from the tree (is that an abnormal ground condition?). My ball is sitting in an animal scrape in that ground cover. I clearly cannot actually get to the ball to play a shot. Do I get relief? Relief would take me out from under the branches of the tree to a position where I would be able to play a shot.

Short answer (just like the referendum) - no.