Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Think you might get away with that one........unless you get Independence, a bloomin' big saw and a huge tug boat to the Carribean..:whoo::cheers:
PING fitting opportunity
- Thread starter MikeH
- Start date
Think you might get away with that one........unless you get Independence, a bloomin' big saw and a huge tug boat to the Carribean..:whoo::cheers:
S
Snelly
Guest
It was a fantastic day and I would like to thank Golf Monthly and Ping profusely for giving me the opportunity to experience it. Many, many thanks.
The day started with a few introductions and a quick breakfast in what has to be one of the nicest garden sheds in the UK - the temporary clubhouse at Centurion Club.
We were then given a quite fascinating tour of the Ping Tour Truck. A vehicle packed with goodies and machines to manipulate them to a degree that I had not previously envisaged.
We then headed to the range to meet our individual fitters for the day. My fitter and playing partner was Steve. An immensely likeable chap with lots of common sense and a keen understanding of the golf swing and club fitting as it turned out. Steve predicted that the fitting for me would be a pretty rapid process as he already had a good idea of what would work. Before I hit any balls, we had a long discussion on my golf equipment and how the session would pan out. At this point I confessed that I had tried several of the latest Ping irons at my local driving range last night and regrettably (I can now confess!) I didn't like any of them, could not hit them as well as my current irons and was feeling somewhat pessimistic.
Steve said he could completely understand this as the stock shafts for their clubs were so far removed from my current irons that it would be a very big switch to make and highly problematic. It transpired (after my irons were assessed in the Tour workshop!) that my current shafts that I have used for the past 11 years are in fact very heavy - 130g plus - and this leads to a high swing weight. In practical terms, this meant that the current, lightweight shafts as fitted to the clubs I tested at my local range, felt quite vague in the downswing and the results were poor.
Steve felt sure that a shaft could be found that gave me a modern version of what I have been playing in my Callaways and it was this that we started to look for through a process of elimination. Note that all irons hit were 7 irons.
First up was a stock Ping stiff shaft, fitted to an i25 head. This was okay but it didn't feel very solid at contact and whilst the results were similar to my current irons, they didn't inspire confidence as again, they felt rather imprecise and vague so we moved on to try the same shaft with an S55 head. This worsened things and the dispersion was wider, plus I didn't like the look of the smaller head behind the ball. Things were not looking good.
Steve then confessed that he thought this would be the case and wanted to see me hit this shaft to confirm his suspicions. At this point we switched shaft to the one that Ping currently offer that Steve felt was the closest, latest version of that in my old irons. This was a True Temper S300 and it was fitted to the S55 head. It felt very different in the hands and I could again sense where the clubhead was thanks to the added weight. The results were totally different immediately and I started hitting the target green with just about every shot. However the ball flight was very high and Steve decided to see if the i25 would bring it down a bit so we switched the club heads.
The i25 was much better and the ball flight dropped considerably, boosting the distance at the same time. Whilst this was welcome, the best aspect of the change was the tightening of the dispersion that came with it. I don't think I missed the green once and several shots were close to the pin. Additionally, I had a distance gain of 10 yards with this combination over my old Callaways. This was quite a surprise.
Steve changed the shaft again to a KBS C Taper. This was better than the stock shaft and I hit the balls well with it with both heads attached but it didn't feel as good as the TT S300. The computer numbers agreed and so, after a process of fairly swift elimination, Steve concluded that the True Temper S300 shaft was the one to go with and then it was a question of choosing which iron head to plump for.
This was a fairly simple choice really. I preferred the look of the i25, the dispersion pattern with it was the best, I gained 10 yards with it and once the right shaft was fitted, it felt great at impact with a lovely crunch. Most importantly though, the trajectory of the shot was lower than with any other option, including my old irons. I have wanted to hit the ball a little lower for years and was delighted to see this made possible.
I thought the S55 heads were quite nice but they are a little harder to hit well and had no discernible advantage over the i25's that I could see. In fact the dispersion was worse, the distance shorter and in terms of the supposed feel that forged clubs provide, well I couldn't detect it and personally found the i25's far more satisfying to hit, especially in terms of the contact with the ball.
After we agreed that these were the irons for me, we moved on to the long end of the bag. I tried several clubs; the new Rapture driving iron, the G25 hybrid and the i25 hybrid, both in 19 degree loft. The first was not for me, the second was fine but a bit chunky and the last one was great. A nice low, powerful trajectory that I really liked.
Next, we looked at wedges and I tried the new Ping Gorge clubs in the same lofts as I currently have. They were excellent and there is not much else to say about that.
This concluded the fitting really and with the time left, Steve and I tried a few other clubs that are hot off the shelf. These included a few of the latest 3 woods and the G25 driver. All were very nice. The G25 3 wood was particularly cool.
A quick note on the driver (stiff shaft) - I hit half a dozen, one of which was pretty long and I thought I would benchmark this against my current driver as it seemed that it was significantly longer. It wasn't! I put 3 out of 5 past it with my ten year old Rapture, adding credence to my suspicion that driver distances haven't changed much, despite what the club makers promise!
We adjourned for lunch and then it was off to play 18 holes on the Centurion course. Steve was off 3 and my partner so I played off the same handicap. We were playing with Mike and his fitter, Ed, who was a pro as well as a fitter at Ping. We had an excellent game together on what will clearly be a superb golf course over the coming years as it matures. Steve and I scraped a 2 and 1 win and everyone played some decent golf.
I took the i25 7 iron I had been fitted for on the course too and used it a few times. It was great and quite clearly as long as my existing 6 iron. Easy to hit and very powerful. Over 180 yards I would guess.
We got back to the club, swapped a few stories over a pint and then headed for home.
As an experience, it was really superb and I 100% recommend the latest Ping products. Very nice irons indeed.
In terms of custom fitting, I am still forming my opinion really. Clearly, without Steve's help, I could have easily walked in to a shop and bought some Ping products that were entirely unsuitable which leads me to conclude that the fitting of clubs is a valuable exercise and just about crucial. That said, it is perhaps only crucial as a result of the 24 million combinations that Ping currently offer for irons! The choice is huge, therefore guidance is required. Why so big a choice is offered is a separate question.
Finally, I have also affirmed my view that whilst fitting is certainly something worthwhile, it is absolutely not a panacea for golfing issues and is not a short cut to excellence. My view remains the same in that golfing ability, derived from hard work and hitting thousands of golf shots is still the best way to become or stay a good player and happily, I met quite a few people today that work in the golf industry, that agree with this view.
Once again, many thanks for the opportunity GM and Ping. It was an education, very enjoyable and the three forum-ites I met today were true gentlemen and excellent company.
Snelly.
The day started with a few introductions and a quick breakfast in what has to be one of the nicest garden sheds in the UK - the temporary clubhouse at Centurion Club.
We were then given a quite fascinating tour of the Ping Tour Truck. A vehicle packed with goodies and machines to manipulate them to a degree that I had not previously envisaged.
We then headed to the range to meet our individual fitters for the day. My fitter and playing partner was Steve. An immensely likeable chap with lots of common sense and a keen understanding of the golf swing and club fitting as it turned out. Steve predicted that the fitting for me would be a pretty rapid process as he already had a good idea of what would work. Before I hit any balls, we had a long discussion on my golf equipment and how the session would pan out. At this point I confessed that I had tried several of the latest Ping irons at my local driving range last night and regrettably (I can now confess!) I didn't like any of them, could not hit them as well as my current irons and was feeling somewhat pessimistic.
Steve said he could completely understand this as the stock shafts for their clubs were so far removed from my current irons that it would be a very big switch to make and highly problematic. It transpired (after my irons were assessed in the Tour workshop!) that my current shafts that I have used for the past 11 years are in fact very heavy - 130g plus - and this leads to a high swing weight. In practical terms, this meant that the current, lightweight shafts as fitted to the clubs I tested at my local range, felt quite vague in the downswing and the results were poor.
Steve felt sure that a shaft could be found that gave me a modern version of what I have been playing in my Callaways and it was this that we started to look for through a process of elimination. Note that all irons hit were 7 irons.
First up was a stock Ping stiff shaft, fitted to an i25 head. This was okay but it didn't feel very solid at contact and whilst the results were similar to my current irons, they didn't inspire confidence as again, they felt rather imprecise and vague so we moved on to try the same shaft with an S55 head. This worsened things and the dispersion was wider, plus I didn't like the look of the smaller head behind the ball. Things were not looking good.
Steve then confessed that he thought this would be the case and wanted to see me hit this shaft to confirm his suspicions. At this point we switched shaft to the one that Ping currently offer that Steve felt was the closest, latest version of that in my old irons. This was a True Temper S300 and it was fitted to the S55 head. It felt very different in the hands and I could again sense where the clubhead was thanks to the added weight. The results were totally different immediately and I started hitting the target green with just about every shot. However the ball flight was very high and Steve decided to see if the i25 would bring it down a bit so we switched the club heads.
The i25 was much better and the ball flight dropped considerably, boosting the distance at the same time. Whilst this was welcome, the best aspect of the change was the tightening of the dispersion that came with it. I don't think I missed the green once and several shots were close to the pin. Additionally, I had a distance gain of 10 yards with this combination over my old Callaways. This was quite a surprise.
Steve changed the shaft again to a KBS C Taper. This was better than the stock shaft and I hit the balls well with it with both heads attached but it didn't feel as good as the TT S300. The computer numbers agreed and so, after a process of fairly swift elimination, Steve concluded that the True Temper S300 shaft was the one to go with and then it was a question of choosing which iron head to plump for.
This was a fairly simple choice really. I preferred the look of the i25, the dispersion pattern with it was the best, I gained 10 yards with it and once the right shaft was fitted, it felt great at impact with a lovely crunch. Most importantly though, the trajectory of the shot was lower than with any other option, including my old irons. I have wanted to hit the ball a little lower for years and was delighted to see this made possible.
I thought the S55 heads were quite nice but they are a little harder to hit well and had no discernible advantage over the i25's that I could see. In fact the dispersion was worse, the distance shorter and in terms of the supposed feel that forged clubs provide, well I couldn't detect it and personally found the i25's far more satisfying to hit, especially in terms of the contact with the ball.
After we agreed that these were the irons for me, we moved on to the long end of the bag. I tried several clubs; the new Rapture driving iron, the G25 hybrid and the i25 hybrid, both in 19 degree loft. The first was not for me, the second was fine but a bit chunky and the last one was great. A nice low, powerful trajectory that I really liked.
Next, we looked at wedges and I tried the new Ping Gorge clubs in the same lofts as I currently have. They were excellent and there is not much else to say about that.
This concluded the fitting really and with the time left, Steve and I tried a few other clubs that are hot off the shelf. These included a few of the latest 3 woods and the G25 driver. All were very nice. The G25 3 wood was particularly cool.
A quick note on the driver (stiff shaft) - I hit half a dozen, one of which was pretty long and I thought I would benchmark this against my current driver as it seemed that it was significantly longer. It wasn't! I put 3 out of 5 past it with my ten year old Rapture, adding credence to my suspicion that driver distances haven't changed much, despite what the club makers promise!
We adjourned for lunch and then it was off to play 18 holes on the Centurion course. Steve was off 3 and my partner so I played off the same handicap. We were playing with Mike and his fitter, Ed, who was a pro as well as a fitter at Ping. We had an excellent game together on what will clearly be a superb golf course over the coming years as it matures. Steve and I scraped a 2 and 1 win and everyone played some decent golf.
I took the i25 7 iron I had been fitted for on the course too and used it a few times. It was great and quite clearly as long as my existing 6 iron. Easy to hit and very powerful. Over 180 yards I would guess.
We got back to the club, swapped a few stories over a pint and then headed for home.
As an experience, it was really superb and I 100% recommend the latest Ping products. Very nice irons indeed.
In terms of custom fitting, I am still forming my opinion really. Clearly, without Steve's help, I could have easily walked in to a shop and bought some Ping products that were entirely unsuitable which leads me to conclude that the fitting of clubs is a valuable exercise and just about crucial. That said, it is perhaps only crucial as a result of the 24 million combinations that Ping currently offer for irons! The choice is huge, therefore guidance is required. Why so big a choice is offered is a separate question.
Finally, I have also affirmed my view that whilst fitting is certainly something worthwhile, it is absolutely not a panacea for golfing issues and is not a short cut to excellence. My view remains the same in that golfing ability, derived from hard work and hitting thousands of golf shots is still the best way to become or stay a good player and happily, I met quite a few people today that work in the golf industry, that agree with this view.
Once again, many thanks for the opportunity GM and Ping. It was an education, very enjoyable and the three forum-ites I met today were true gentlemen and excellent company.
Snelly.
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Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Excellent write-up Sir!
Really thought the S55 would be yours but then I remember you play X18's so ending with i25's isn't a surprise.
Interesting about the drivers though......!
Really thought the S55 would be yours but then I remember you play X18's so ending with i25's isn't a surprise.
Interesting about the drivers though......!
chrisd
Major Champion
So Snelly you're now officially an old git!
Great story and it's interesting that you say that a club custom fit isn't the be all and end all of golf improvement given that I just bought a bog standard, off the shelf set of Callaways a couple of weeks ago and am loving them
Great write up, I hope the clubs stay in the bag and that eventually you get a handicap!!
Great story and it's interesting that you say that a club custom fit isn't the be all and end all of golf improvement given that I just bought a bog standard, off the shelf set of Callaways a couple of weeks ago and am loving them
Great write up, I hope the clubs stay in the bag and that eventually you get a handicap!!
matt71
Tour Rookie
Quality update sounds like Steve really is the on the ball working out the best set up for you ! It will be good to read how the high handicapper formites got on and what clubs they were selected!
glad you enjoyed your day you jammy so and so :thup:
glad you enjoyed your day you jammy so and so :thup:
virtuocity
Tour Winner
Great write up, but I really think that you've proven custom fitting can work- even if it's a case of getting someone to find the right combination of shafts and heads.
wookie
Q-School Graduate
Well what a cracking day out (as I had kind if expected) that was - many many thanks to all the guys at Ping and GM.
I got out the van to see a familiar face from the Woburn meet next to the Ping truck as Steve who had been one of my playing partners that day is the main driver / tour technician. I said a quick hello and then went into the clubhouse thinking he looked a bit flustered to find out over breakfast that the generator on the truck had failed and one that had been hired wasn't up to the job of running the airlines. This meant no club building and explained Steve's frustration but to be fair the way things panned out time wise I reckon he would have been very pushed time wise to get four sets built anyway.
The tour of the truck was very interesting with some very high tech kit to measure specs (eg lofts to .25 degree and swing weights to such a margin that putting a piece of tissue on changed the reading) and some very low tech kit to do the adjustments (think vices, hammers, bending bars and brute force). Lots and lots of shafts and heads etc including some specific grips for Miguel Jiminez and some bright pink driver shafts that could only have been for one person!
Out to the range for the fitting and from the static measurements it was decided I needed 1 inch longer and 4.5 degrees upright compared to the previous 1.5 I'd had at a previous fitting (the iron that was measured from my old set was actually 2.5).
Before going I had my mind set that I would walk away with the i25s as I thought the g25s would be too shovel like and the s55s too unforgiving but I was given the g25 to start with and it wasn't anywhere near the size I thought it would be. Looking down on the club I thought it looked slightly bigger than my r11s but not too bad.
I started with a stiff shaft and straight away was getting ball away nicely and the dispersion was visibly better. Trackman backed this up but suggested the spin was too high. We tried both the extra stiff and soft regular before settling on the regular shaft.
I was still a tiny bit dubious about the head size so then tried the i25 but the slightly off shots just weren't as good and the dispersion suffered.
We had just started in the hybrid and 4 wood we had talked about when the PC failed so didn't get too much in the way of feedback numbers wise for those but some of the results were pretty obviously visibly so settled for g25 4 wood and i25 22 degree hybrid both with stiff shafts.
When the machine was back up and running we had time for a quick comparison of my r11 against the g25 7 iron and I had gained around 8 yards with massive improvements dispersion wise.
After a quick lunch we headed out onto the course and after going 3 down after 3 holes my fitter Paul (aka billy for no apparent reason) won 5 holes in succession and held on for a 4 and 3 victory! The demo 7 iron, hybrid and 4 wood which I took out performed very well and can't wait for them to arrive.
Centurion is a cracking course which looks like it's only going to get better and better and the atmosphere around the place was very friendly and relaxed. The greens were true if a little slow yesterday but when they are quick I bet they're very slippery indeed.
A pleasure to meet Dave, Mike and Bryan and everyone from both companies yesterday and thanks again to those involved.
NB apologies for long-winded and possible repetitive nature of this post which was typed with a 2 year old attempting to jump on me
) that was - many many thanks to all the guys at Ping and GM.I got out the van to see a familiar face from the Woburn meet next to the Ping truck as Steve who had been one of my playing partners that day is the main driver / tour technician. I said a quick hello and then went into the clubhouse thinking he looked a bit flustered to find out over breakfast that the generator on the truck had failed and one that had been hired wasn't up to the job of running the airlines. This meant no club building and explained Steve's frustration but to be fair the way things panned out time wise I reckon he would have been very pushed time wise to get four sets built anyway.
The tour of the truck was very interesting with some very high tech kit to measure specs (eg lofts to .25 degree and swing weights to such a margin that putting a piece of tissue on changed the reading) and some very low tech kit to do the adjustments (think vices, hammers, bending bars and brute force
). Lots and lots of shafts and heads etc including some specific grips for Miguel Jiminez and some bright pink driver shafts that could only have been for one person!Out to the range for the fitting and from the static measurements it was decided I needed 1 inch longer and 4.5 degrees upright compared to the previous 1.5 I'd had at a previous fitting (the iron that was measured from my old set was actually 2.5).
Before going I had my mind set that I would walk away with the i25s as I thought the g25s would be too shovel like and the s55s too unforgiving but I was given the g25 to start with and it wasn't anywhere near the size I thought it would be. Looking down on the club I thought it looked slightly bigger than my r11s but not too bad.
I started with a stiff shaft and straight away was getting ball away nicely and the dispersion was visibly better. Trackman backed this up but suggested the spin was too high. We tried both the extra stiff and soft regular before settling on the regular shaft.
I was still a tiny bit dubious about the head size so then tried the i25 but the slightly off shots just weren't as good and the dispersion suffered.
We had just started in the hybrid and 4 wood we had talked about when the PC failed so didn't get too much in the way of feedback numbers wise for those but some of the results were pretty obviously visibly so settled for g25 4 wood and i25 22 degree hybrid both with stiff shafts.
When the machine was back up and running we had time for a quick comparison of my r11 against the g25 7 iron and I had gained around 8 yards with massive improvements dispersion wise.
After a quick lunch we headed out onto the course and after going 3 down after 3 holes my fitter Paul (aka billy for no apparent reason) won 5 holes in succession and held on for a 4 and 3 victory! The demo 7 iron, hybrid and 4 wood which I took out performed very well and can't wait for them to arrive.
Centurion is a cracking course which looks like it's only going to get better and better and the atmosphere around the place was very friendly and relaxed. The greens were true if a little slow yesterday but when they are quick I bet they're very slippery indeed.
A pleasure to meet Dave, Mike and Bryan and everyone from both companies yesterday and thanks again to those involved.
NB apologies for long-winded and possible repetitive nature of this post which was typed with a 2 year old attempting to jump on me
S
Snelly
Guest
I agree. My use of the word "crucial" in relation to fitting in my previous post would perhaps point to this conclusion too.
S
Snelly
Guest
One point of clarification - the newer driver was much, much easier to hit.
P.S. Old irons were Callaway X-16 Pro. And it would be interesting to make a comparison between the i25's if I could fit my old irons with the shaft chosen for me yesterday. That would be conclusive.
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D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Very interesting about the difference between the S55 and I25 with the TT shaft
I recently tried the S55 in the TT but didn't with the I25. Which did you prefer when looking down at them ? Visually which pleased you ?
Got a Ping demo day soon so going it try it and see what results I get
Good write up and certainly has given me food for thought
I recently tried the S55 in the TT but didn't with the I25. Which did you prefer when looking down at them ? Visually which pleased you ?
Got a Ping demo day soon so going it try it and see what results I get
Good write up and certainly has given me food for thought
S
Snelly
Guest
I don't really care what irons look like to be honest. That said, both looked the same really when they were behind the ball. The difference in size was marginal and the topline was pretty much the same. The only thing I remember is that the i25's have the iron number on the face and additionally the S55 has a proper hosel.
I do care about what clubs feel like at impact though and both felt great. No discernible difference between them really as far as I could tell. The trackman showed the i25's to be much more reliable and tighter in dispersion though.
Finally, the number one and massively overriding reason I chose the i25's was the ball flight. The S55's were too high and the i25's noticeably lower.
TXL
Q-School Graduate
Snelly, Your fitting experience sounds very similar to the one I had at Gainsborough in January. I think it was the 3rd or 4th shaft/head combination that suited my swing the best. I ended up with KBS Tour regular shafts with i25 heads.
There was a fitting charge with Ping and a cost of fuel to get there, but IMO, it was worth every penny.
There was a fitting charge with Ping and a cost of fuel to get there, but IMO, it was worth every penny.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
S
Snelly
Guest
Meant to mention that I got stats on my swing for the first time ever. From memory, with the 7 iron, they were a swing speed of 86mph, a ball speed of 114mph and a smash factor of 1.31. Spin on a 7 iron was 6700 ish.
Might be wrong though. Can't remember this aspect all that clearly as was focused on hitting shots.
Might be wrong though. Can't remember this aspect all that clearly as was focused on hitting shots.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
nice write up snelly. did you try longer/shorter shafts or have the lie changed on them. ping have a colour system for the different lie angles. I don't think you mentioned this in your write up.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Snelly is probably pretty standard in that respect, unlike wookie!
S
Snelly
Guest
Did all that yes. Murph is right as I am fairly standard. A hairs breadth over six feet.
Only took a minute. 3 measurements and I was classed as green. Quite interesting given all my other Ping sets have been blue dot. Steve the fitter said I would be okay with one of about 4 colours but that green was most suitable. I agree as I took a yellow dot 7 iron on the course and hit it perfectly well.
Grips were a bit bigger than normal, a bit like I have now with two layers of extra tape.
Reminds me that we were told Bubba has 11 (might have been an exaggeration) layers of tape on his clubs and interestingly, has them put on at 30 degrees off centre to aid his cut. He also only allows one bloke in the world to re-grip his kit.
Also got told that all Ping Tour players have the driver slightly shorter than standard with one exception - Jiminez. He is getting on a bit so actually has his driver and 3 wood a bit longer than standard so that he can keep up with the long, youthful hitters.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
cool, glad to hear you got the works!
afaik bubba has something like 11 layers at the bottom and something silly like 20 at the top of the grip. all in an attempt to stave off any hooks unless he wants to. must allow him to hold it open slightly at impact.
mental set up. must be like a baseball bat! :rofl:
afaik bubba has something like 11 layers at the bottom and something silly like 20 at the top of the grip. all in an attempt to stave off any hooks unless he wants to. must allow him to hold it open slightly at impact.
mental set up. must be like a baseball bat! :rofl:
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
I've handled one of the Bubba replica drivers at Wentworth, could barely get my hands round the grip. It's like a cricket bat
however, as many manufacturers have S300 as a 'standard' could an off the shelf set from one of them showed similar 'results'?
Pings stock shafts are notoriously under par so to speak.
I think, based on the write up, it gives more credence to your previous posts on CF
To be fair though I think you would achieve the same results but over a longer period due to a greater propensity for trial and error.
For a beginner or very new novice CF can save months if not years of potential error.
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