Penalty query

[louise_a]

In a foursomes stableford competition player A and player B are both carrying 14 clubs each. On one hole player A chips the ball to 2 feet and doesn't take his putter onto the green, Player B misses the putt so player A holes out with Player B's putter. Player A realises this is a penalty so returns the putter to Player B and does not repeat the error.

I know this is breach of the rules, but am unsure as to what the penalty is. Its either 2 shots, 2 points or disqualification. I cannot decide on what is the correct penalty.

 

[pogle]

In a foursomes stableford competition player A and player B are both carrying 14 clubs each. On one hole player A chips the ball to 2 feet and doesn't take his putter onto the green, Player B misses the putt so player A holes out with Player B's putter. Player A realises this is a penalty so returns the putter to Player B and does not repeat the error.

I know this is breach of the rules, but am unsure as to what the penalty is. Its either 2 shots, 2 points or disqualification. I cannot decide on what is the correct penalty.

The penalty is 2 points, but there's an added twist. This is a penalty under Rule 4-4, (max no of clubs), and there's a maximum penalty of 4 pooints that can be applied in a round. Under Note 1 to rule 32-1b, if a competitor incurs a penalty for which there is a maximum penalty per round, as in this case, he must report the facts to the Committee, otherwise he is disqualified.

Were the facts reported to the Committee or not?

 

[louise_a]

This is where the confusion arises, do you have to report it if you have only incurred 2 points and not the maximum. also If I am on the committee and was one of the group involved is it taken that it has been reported?

 

[rulefan]

This is where the confusion arises, do you have to report it if you have only incurred 2 points and not the maximum. also If I am on the committee and was one of the group involved is it taken that it has been reported?

Yes it has to be reported. The committee apply the appropriate penalty not the player.

Did you discuss it with the rest of the committee?

 

[pogle]

This is where the confusion arises, do you have to report it if you have only incurred 2 points and not the maximum. also If I am on the committee and was one of the group involved is it taken that it has been reported?

You do need to report for just a 2 point penalty.

As for the second point, I think it's for the Committee to decide whether you being present constitutes reporting to the Committee.

I know that's dodging the question, but there are many things in the RoG that involve the Committee with no hard and fast rules and the RoG say "it's up to the Committee to decide". I think the point is that there are many levels of formality and what might be appropriate for the Open Championship might not be for the Ellesmere Ladies Foursomes Stableford.

 

[louise_a]

In fairness I didn't tell anyone else, we didn't have a good score, to be honest if we had had a good score going it wouldn't have happened in the first place, but I need to know the correct interpretation of the rule in case it ever came up again.

 

[palindromicbob]

This rule is confusing me in relation to the example.

My gut would have been to record the score on the hole with a two stroke penalty applied and let that be used for the stableford scoring.

If score with penalty led to a gross double/nett bogey = 1 point. would the committee hammer the player twice and apply an additional 2 point penalty for the hole the breech occurred leading to a -1 overall or what way does it work?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm also confused in regards letting the committee know ?

Am I reading it right that any penalty that occurs a two shot penalty the committee must be informed ? Who then have the power to apply further penalty ?

 

[pogle]

This rule is confusing me in relation to the example.

My gut would have been to record the score on the hole with a two stroke penalty applied and let that be used for the stableford scoring.

If score with penalty led to a gross double/nett bogey = 1 point. would the committee hammer the player twice and apply an additional 2 point penalty for the hole the breech occurred leading to a -1 overall or what way does it work?

That would have been incorrect in a stableford. It's a 2 point deduction that is taken from the total, not at a particular hole. And yes, I know the scoring software doesn't let you do that, but it's still the rules.

There are other penalties where points get deducted from the total, such as starting late. I assume it's so the player "doesn't get away with it" if he blobs the hole.

 

[rulefan]

I assume it's so the player "doesn't get away with it" if he blobs the hole.

Exactly

 

[pogle]

I'm also confused in regards letting the committee know ?

Am I reading it right that any penalty that occurs a two shot penalty the committee must be informed ? Who then have the power to apply further penalty ?

No, it's just for rules breaches where there is a maximum penalty for the round. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are too many clubs (as in this case), carrying - but not using - a non-conforming club, or too many caddies (pretty rare I'd imagine). In these cases, the player incurs a two stroke penalty for the first two holes (or one hole if he takes appropriate action) but no other penalties for subsequent holes - hence a maximum penalty for the round.

I have absolutely no idea why the RoG stipulate this.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No, it's just for rules breaches where there is a maximum penalty for the round. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are too many clubs (as in this case), carrying - but not using - a non-conforming club, or too many caddies (pretty rare I'd imagine). In these cases, the player incurs a two stroke penalty for the first two holes (or one hole if he takes appropriate action) but no other penalties for subsequent holes - hence a maximum penalty for the round.

I have absolutely no idea why the RoG stipulate this.

AH right cheers - is that two shot penalty per hole ? Then after that it goes to the committee who then have the power to do what - is there a set guideline

 

[pogle]

AH right cheers - is that two shot penalty per hole ? Then after that it goes to the committee who then have the power to do what - is there a set guideline

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. It's two shots/points per hole.

I can't find that the Committee have the power to do anything else - as I say I have no idea why this needs to happen.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. It's two shots/points per hole.

I can't find that the Committee have the power to do anything else - as I say I have no idea why this needs to happen.

Cheers much appreciated

 

[palindromicbob]

Exactly

That would have been incorrect in a stableford. It's a 2 point deduction that is taken from the total, not at a particular hole. And yes, I know the scoring software doesn't let you do that, but it's still the rules.

There are other penalties where points get deducted from the total, such as starting late. I assume it's so the player "doesn't get away with it" if he blobs the hole.

What about the following scenario.

10 handicapper half way down first fairway S.I:6 realises he has 15 clubs. Declares 15th out of play before taking his second stroke. Proceeds to birdie the first and add's a two stroke penalty to his score leading to a gross 5 nett 4 for 2 points.

He proceeds to have an amazing round and shoots a 2 over par 74. Totalling 44 points. Had it not been for the fact he'd been testing his mates 3W last night he'd have been level par & 46 points.

He reports to the committee and they are supposed to wack another 2 points off him?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What about the following scenario.

10 handicapper half way down first fairway S.I:6 realises he has 15 clubs. Declares 15th out of play before taking his second stroke. Proceeds to birdie the first and add's a two stroke penalty to his score leading to a gross 5 nett 4 for 2 points.

He proceeds to have an amazing round and shoots a 2 over par 74. Totalling 44 points. Had it not been for the fact he'd been testing his mates 3W last night he'd have been level par & 46 points.

He reports to the committee and they are supposed to wack another 2 points off him?

If I'm reading what's been said right that doesn't have to be reported to the committee because the maximum hasn't been applied - the mistake was made before the second hole was played so only one two stroke penalty. If he had noticed on the second hole then it's reported ?

 

[backwoodsman]

What about the following scenario.

10 handicapper half way down first fairway S.I:6 realises he has 15 clubs. Declares 15th out of play before taking his second stroke. Proceeds to birdie the first and add's a two stroke penalty to his score leading to a gross 5 nett 4 for 2 points.

He proceeds to have an amazing round and shoots a 2 over par 74. Totalling 44 points. Had it not been for the fact he'd been testing his mates 3W last night he'd have been level par & 46 points.

He reports to the committee and they are supposed to wack another 2 points off him?

Nope. He records his score - which was a three. He reports his breach of the rule to the committee and after they have worked out his points, they knock 2 points off his total score for each hole at which the breach occurred (up to a total of 2 holes) - which would have been 46 but for his breach. In stableford the player is only required to record his score for each hole. I know we all do it, but we're not supposed to record points.

 

[louise_a]

If I'm reading what's been said right that doesn't have to be reported to the committee because the maximum hasn't been applied - the mistake was made before the second hole was played so only one two stroke penalty. If he had noticed on the second hole then it's reported ?

It still has to be reported (as per my original query) if the breachcould incur a maximum penalty.

 

[rulefan]

This rule is confusing me in relation to the example.

My gut would have been to record the score on the hole with a two stroke penalty applied and let that be used for the stableford scoring.

If score with penalty led to a gross double/nett bogey = 1 point. would the committee hammer the player twice and apply an additional 2 point penalty for the hole the breech occurred leading to a -1 overall or what way does it work?

The player does not record the penalty against the score of the hole (what if the player and his partner blobbed?). Only the gross score for each hole is required from the player. The committee calculate the stableford points per hole and total them. They then reduce the points by 2 (or 4) points.
That is why the committee has to be informed. Players are not required to calculate points so therefore cannot make any adjustments.
Further, in 4BBB the side is penalised, not the player (31-6).

 

[pogle]

The player does not record the penalty against the score of the hole (what if the player and his partner blobbed?). Only the gross score for each hole is required from the player. The committee calculate the stableford points per hole and total them. They then reduce the points by 2 (or 4) points.
That is why the committee has to be informed. Players are not required to calculate points so therefore cannot make any adjustments.
Further, in 4BBB the side is penalised, not the player (31-6).

Doh, of course, that's it.