Penalties on Provisional Balls

[Grizzly]

I played a club match yesterday; one of our opponents was...lets be blunt and say he was clueless about the rules and etiquette of the game. On one hole, he hit a hybrid for his second, landed it very clearly in play (he literally walked straight up the fairway to his ball sitting up in the first cut when the time came). He then took another ball out, threw it on the ground, nuzzled it around for a few moments until he liked the lie, and hit that as well. Noone was close enough to hear him call a provisional, so we'll have to accept he claim that he did so (it looked more like he fancied a practice at the shot).

So, does he get the penalty for an improper drop, or as he found his first ball, does he get a free pass (which is what his partner, their club captain, claimed)?

 

[rulefan]

I'm afraid the is rather confusing.
How many strokes did he make with his ball? When did he take a provisional? Where was the shot he hit in relation to his original?

 

[Grizzly]

1. Tee shot with original ball
2. Second shot with original ball
3. The alleged provisional ball that is the root of my confusion
4. Third shot with original ball
5. Fourth shot with original ball
6. Fifth shot, holed, with original ball

 

[CliveW]

How could it possibly be a provisional if it wasn’t played from the same place as his second shot?

 

[rulie]

Where did he play the "provisional" ball from?

 

[VVega]

he literally walked straight up the fairway to his ball sitting up in the first cut when the time came

I guess OP says that the player did play a claimed provisional from the original spot. OPs issue is that it was almost certain that the first played ball was in play, so there is a question about the validity of the provisional ball.

In other words, unless you see the ball after you played it, can you play a provisional “just in case” without any further consideration?

 

[Colin L]

I played a club match yesterday; one of our opponents was...lets be blunt and say he was clueless about the rules and etiquette of the game. On one hole, he hit a hybrid for his second, landed it very clearly in play (he literally walked straight up the fairway to his ball sitting up in the first cut when the time came). He then took another ball out, threw it on the ground, nuzzled it around for a few moments until he liked the lie, and hit that as well. Noone was close enough to hear him call a provisional, so we'll have to accept he claim that he did so (it looked more like he fancied a practice at the shot).

So, does he get the penalty for an improper drop, or as he found his first ball, does he get a free pass (which is what his partner, their club captain, claimed)?

He what? Walked up to his ball, dropped another one, played it and called it a provisional? That's crazy. You can only play a rpvosional after making a stroke and your ball might be lost or out of bounds. He substituted a ball without the authority of a rule and cops a 2 stroke penalty. As he played it near where his original was lying, it wouldn.t be a serous breach

 

[Colin L]

One stroke as you say. My mistake.

 

[Steven Rules]

I 've just read the OP again.

On one hole, he hit a hybrid for his second, landed it very clearly in play (he literally walked straight up the fairway to his ball sitting up in the first cut when the time came).

So I deduce that he did things in the correct sequence. Note emphasis on 'when the time came'. I take this to mean that the provisional was played after the second shot with the original - it just isn't expressed clearly in #1.

Noone was close enough to hear him call a provisional, so we'll have to accept he claim that he did

That's fine. Under 18.3b if there is no one nearby to hear the player’s announcement, the player may play the provisional ball and then inform someone of their actions when possible to do so.

He then took another ball out, threw it on the ground, nuzzled it around for a few moments until he liked the lie, and hit that as well.

This was the apparent provisional - played in the correct sequence - see my assumption above. Addendum - there is a myriad of misdemeanours here [without an apparent intervening event (Rule 1.3c(4))]: dropping the ball in a wrong way (one penalty stroke), shuffling the provisional ball around with a club etc (one penalty stroke) would result in the player playing from a wrong place (loss of hole in match play). But as the original ball was found, the provisional must be abandoned and any strokes (including penalties) made with the provisional do not count. (Rule 18.3c(3))

 

[Orikoru]

He's clearly played a practise shot, but I guess if he claims it was a provisional because he genuinely didn't see where his first ball went, then you can only take his word for it. Bit weird considering he hit the first one in the fairway, but maybe the sun was in his eyes??

 

[Steven Rules]

In other words, unless you see the ball after you played it, can you play a provisional “just in case” without any further consideration?

This is fine. If the player considers the ball may be lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds thay may play a provisional. It is based on what the player believes and it is normally interpreted pretty liberally.

Maybe the player lost sight of the ball. Maybe his eyesight wasn't great. Maybe the sun was in his eyes. Maybe trees were obscuring the view. I note from the OP that there seemed to be nobody nearby to consult with.

 

[Steven Rules]

does he get a free pass (which is what his partner, their club captain, claimed

In this scenario, I'm not sure what being a club captain has to do with it.

 

[salfordlad]

The way this 'provisional' was launched suggests the player intended it as practice, but there is no clear proof of a breach. However, in such a dodgy situation, you may see benefit in alerting this person to the fact that there were rule breaches in the way this ball was played and these would need to be included in the score if the original ball is not found. Sounds like this person could do with a not so subtle reminder they are competing in a rules-based framework and you will protect your rights under those rules.

 

[jim8flog]

I played a club match yesterday; one of our opponents was...lets be blunt and say he was clueless about the rules and etiquette of the game. On one hole, he hit a hybrid for his second, landed it very clearly in play (he literally walked straight up the fairway to his ball sitting up in the first cut when the time came). He then took another ball out, threw it on the ground, nuzzled it around for a few moments until he liked the lie, and hit that as well. Noone was close enough to hear him call a provisional, so we'll have to accept he claim that he did so (it looked more like he fancied a practice at the shot).

So, does he get the penalty for an improper drop, or as he found his first ball, does he get a free pass (which is what his partner, their club captain, claimed)?

And what did you do about all that in bold?

 

[Grizzly]

This was the apparent provisional - played in the correct sequence - see my assumption above. Addendum - there is a myriad of misdemeanours here [without an apparent intervening event (Rule 1.3c(4))]: dropping the ball in a wrong way (one penalty stroke), shuffling the provisional ball around with a club etc (one penalty stroke) would result in the player playing from a wrong place (loss of hole in match play). But as the original ball was found, the provisional must be abandoned and any strokes (including penalties) made with the provisional do not count. (Rule 18.3c(3))

Thanks - whilst it feels wrong, that was the answer I was looking for.

 

[Grizzly]

Sounds like this person could do with a not so subtle reminder they are competing in a rules-based framework and you will protect your rights under those rules.

Quite. The incident happened on the 11th - by which stage he had already tried to drop a ball where his drive had been lost because "that's what we play in our roll up" and answered a phone call whilst I was teeing off. It was a fractious match to say the least!

 

[salfordlad]

Quite. The incident happened on the 11th - by which stage he had already tried to drop a ball where his drive had been lost because "that's what we play in our roll up" and answered a phone call whilst I was teeing off. It was a fractious match to say the least!

I like "that's what we play in our roll up", that's a new match play rule I hadn't heard of. If his roll up wants to employ MLR E-5, good luck to them if it is social play without registering scores. But if the club or the event has not put that MLR in place, it's S&D.
I think that is a dream opponent in handicap match play, their handicap is going to be useless to them as it will be too low for when they are forced to play to the rules.

 

[IanM]

If he takes a call when you're driving in a match...... that's when it's time to walk in