PCC calculation to be changed.....

[rulefan]

We're similar, our yellow tees are theoretically 0.4 of a shot easier to par than the whites, most disgaree with that and think the yellows are harder.

To go further, at my home club, par 72, SSS 70, off 6 I was effectively 4 as folks always think of par as the number. At Newmacher as an eg, par 72, SSS 74, now I'm off an effective 8. To play to my handicap, the target was already moved, now instead of the target moving, I get more or less shots to start with. It intuitively feels wrong.

Has your CR changed from the old SSS? Have the yellows always been harder than the whites? What are the lengths of both?

Your Index is computed from the de-sloped CR not par.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Has your CR changed from the old SSS? Have the yellows always been harder than the whites? What are the lengths of both?

Your Index is computed from the de-sloped CR not par.

Where have I suggested otherwise?

No CR hasn't changed, 70 now 70.2, 68 now 67.8. Whites 6232yds, yellows 5706yds

 

[rulefan]

Where have I suggested otherwise?

No CR hasn't changed, 70 now 70.2, 68 now 67.8. Whites 6232yds, yellows 5706yds

It's just that you keep referring to playing to par.

On length alone the CRs look to be spot on but I know nothing about your course idiosyncrasies

 

[Deleted member 30522]

It's just that you keep referring to playing to par.

On length alone the CRs look to be spot on but I know nothing about your course idiosyncrasies

Yes on length the figures are correct. Which is the whole point, far too much emphasis is placed on length alone when working out the SSS/CR, hence why people question the ratings of respective courses.

Of course I'm refering to par, par v SSS/CR. According to the ratings the yellow tees are easier, but they're not.

 

[Swango1980]

Yes on length the figures are correct. Which is the whole point, far too much emphasis is placed on length alone when working out the SSS/CR, hence why people question the ratings of respective courses.

Of course I'm refering to par, par v SSS/CR. According to the ratings the yellow tees are easier, but they're not.

Of course length plays a huge factor, because the longer a course the bigger the relative difference between a high and a low handicapper would become higher. Not only do higher handicappers generally hit the ball less distance, but having to cover more yardage means they have more opportunity to mess up in comparison to the low handicapper.

Obviously obstacles also come into it (but to a lesser extend generally), and where they are placed in comparison to general landing zones of low and high players. The impact will be different at different courses.

Can't imagine the length of rough should have too big an impact. Sure, it may on average hurt higher handicappers more. But, since handicap is calculated based on the best 8 rounds out of 20, there is a good chance in most of those 8 rounds the higher handicapper didn't have such a terrible day in the rough. Instead, they probably found the fairway a lot, or recovered well enough from the rough when they needed to for it not to be a disaster.

 

[RRidges]

Well done for finally deciphering exactly what I've been saying, though your second sentence seems to belie that, what I'm "whinging" about is having a different handicap at different courses. What I'm "whinging" about is having 3 handicaps when you rock up to a course, the most important of which most players haven't a clue how to work out, nor the slightest understanding of, including the governing bodies who supplied the information for the unsightly boards we all now display, and got them wrong. The system is shite

Well, good luck getting that changed! As I posted earlier, it's been statistically proven that Slope is appropriate. And even if it didn't, it would only take a dozen rounds or so for the system to adjust handicaps so that it does work! Get used to it Luddite!
And you don't have 3 handicaps - you have a single HI, from which whichever handicap you require can be calculated, or looked up, on the boards/sheets provided for the purpose. WRT having the wrong info, I suspect that the lack of similar cries to/announcement from governing bodies is such that you've likely simply made a wrong assumption and all the required info is/was provided!
So stop your whingeing and go play some golf. I'm getting back to my breakfast before the FBI visit about my lookup from the Saudi thread - or hopefully just go to work!

 

[RRidges]

Yes on length the figures are correct. Which is the whole point, far too much emphasis is placed on length alone when working out the SSS/CR, hence why people question the ratings of respective courses.

Of course I'm refering to par, par v SSS/CR. According to the ratings the yellow tees are easier, but they're not.

Forget Par...Just think of total score, which is how CR works (as did SSS).
I actually agree that, relative to Whites, Yellows can seem more difficult to play to CR than Whites. That's what 'Slope' is actually all about! You simply need to absorb that concept.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Well, good luck getting that changed! As I posted earlier, it's been statistically proven that Slope is appropriate. And even if it didn't, it would only take a dozen rounds or so for the system to adjust handicaps so that it does work! Get used to it Luddite!
And you don't have 3 handicaps - you have a single HI, from which whichever handicap you require can be calculated, or looked up, on the boards/sheets provided for the purpose. WRT having the wrong info, I suspect that the lack of similar cries to/announcement from governing bodies is such that you've likely simply made a wrong assumption and all the required info is/was provided!
So stop your whingeing and go play some golf. I'm getting back to my breakfast before the FBI visit about my lookup from the Saudi thread - or hopefully just go to work!

Scottish Golf provided boards with rounded course handicaps, as I'm sure you know, we use *exact* course handicaps before working out the playing handicap, so for most uses the boards are worse than useless.

As far as "luddite", we've not introduced some new incredible piece of kit, we've gone backwards with a poorer mathematical system. We've been wholly behind switching to electronic booking for eg, which some clubs have now reverted back from, so no, not a luddite, just someone who gives something new a chance before deciding on the pros & cons.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Forget Par...Just think of total score, which is how CR works (as did SSS).
I actually agree that, relative to Whites, Yellows can seem more difficult to play to CR than Whites. That's what 'Slope' is actually all about! You simply need to absorb that concept.

Slope is also lower for our yellows, perhaps you should stop here as the concept we're discussing evades you.

 

[wjemather]

Well done for finally deciphering exactly what I've been saying, though your second sentence seems to belie that, what I'm "whinging" about is having a different handicap at different courses. What I'm "whinging" about is having 3 handicaps when you rock up to a course, the most important of which most players haven't a clue how to work out, nor the slightest understanding of, including the governing bodies who supplied the information for the unsightly boards we all now display, and got them wrong. The system is shite

Scottish Golf provided boards with rounded course handicaps, as I'm sure you know, we use *exact* course handicaps before working out the playing handicap, so for most uses the boards are worse than useless.

Like it or not, this is the rounded Course Handicap (as required on the scorecard by the Rules of Golf, and its interpretations/clarifications), and it's (correctly) the one on the boards - for those who wish to have them to hand, further tables/calculators are available for Playing Handicaps.
Your stubborn resistance to accepting this is no fault of the system.

 

[IanM]

Are the Scottish Boards different from the ones in Wales then?

 

[RRidges]

Slope is also lower for our yellows, perhaps you should stop here as the concept we're discussing evades you.

So what! I did state 'seem'! And Slope is all about the additional allowance that higher handicaps get - a concept you seem to deny should exist, except when apparently useful to you.
Anyway, you've finally convinced me of the benefit of the 'Ignore' feature, so carry on spouting as much garbage as you like!

 

[Swango1980]

So what! I did state 'seem'! And Slope is all about the additional allowance that higher handicaps get - a concept you seem to deny should exist, except when apparently useful to you.
Anyway, you've finally convinced me of the benefit of the 'Ignore' feature, so carry on spouting as much garbage as you like!

Careful with that. From what has been said before, BB Ignores anyone who debates with him pretty quickly. Problem is, he continuously blissfully posts erroneous comments, or what some consider dodgy opinions. Others provide perfectly logical challenges to his posts, but he no longer sees them. Fair enough, to him he is blissfully unaware of this. However, to everyone else in the forum, he is made to look a little silly by the counter arguments, and he is in no position to continue to debate his side.

Moral being, if you put him on Ignore, he may post something to try and make you look silly, and you'll never be able to defend yourself.

 

[RRidges]

Careful with that. From what has been said before, BB Ignores anyone who debates with him pretty quickly. Problem is, he continuously blissfully posts erroneous comments, or what some consider dodgy opinions. Others provide perfectly logical challenges to his posts, but he no longer sees them. Fair enough, to him he is blissfully unaware of this. However, to everyone else in the forum, he is made to look a little silly by the counter arguments, and he is in no position to continue to debate his side.

Moral being, if you put him on Ignore, he may post something to try and make you look silly, and you'll never be able to defend yourself.

I'll pop in every now and then for a laugh then!

 

[Alan Clifford]

Forget Par...Just think of total score, which is how CR works (as did SSS).
I actually agree that, relative to Whites, Yellows can seem more difficult to play to CR than Whites. That's what 'Slope' is actually all about! You simply need to absorb that concept.

Oher juristictions put course rating minus par into the course handicap. Seems much more logical to me.

 

[rulefan]

Oher juristictions put course rating minus par into the course handicap. Seems much more logical to me.

It is really only useful/informative if you are playing stableford. Quite unnecessary in strokeplay.

 

[Alan Clifford]

It is really only useful/informative if you are playing stableford. Quite unnecessary in strokeplay.

Unless you are playing against your wife from another tee box. Then you have to do it anyway with yet another convoluted golf arithmetic calculation.

 

[rulefan]

Unless you are playing against your wife from another tee box. Then you have to do it anyway with yet another convoluted golf arithmetic calculation.

Masochist

 

[RRidges]

Oher juristictions put course rating minus par into the course handicap. Seems much more logical to me.

I'm not a fan, though with Stableford - a Par related metric - there might be a small justification.
Par is largely irrelevant in a 'pure Slope' system.
Here's a link to a critique of the CR-Par calc from the guy that invented the Slope system (Dean Knuth). I can't see anything in the article I disagree with.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/voices-the-flaw-in-the-new-world-handicap-system-dean-knuth

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Are the Scottish Boards different from the ones in Wales then?

No they'll be the same, and hence incorrect as in Scotland to work out playing handicap you need exact course handicap, which is not what the baords have. It caused enormous confusion at the start of the year as folks were checking the boards, but then found their phones were giving them different numbers. Being new I had no answer, had to go to SG who then explained the exact course handicap requirement, making the boards redundant for strokeplay here