PCC calculation to be changed.....

[Banchory Buddha]

Yet you seem to be arguing against exactly that with your example of you home course versus Newmacher! Can you name any course where SSS and CR differed by more than 1 stroke?

I haven't claimed that this happened, as far as I know every CR remains unchanged from SSS, except now of course we see the previously hidden decimal point

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

To go on further, and see if we can agree

Many of the SSS ratings didn't make sense, round here you'll find much agreement on which courses were rated too hard, or too soft, thereby giving either too weak or too strong handicaps as a result (at least that's the perception). But if the SSS's had been assessed more accurately, would there be a need for this sliding scale of moving handicap?

To go further, at my home club, par 72, SSS 70, off 6 I was effectively 4 as folks always think of par as the number. At Newmacher as an eg, par 72, SSS 74, now I'm off an effective 8. To play to my handicap, the target was already moved, now instead of the target moving, I get more or less shots to start with. It intuitively feels wrong.

I don’t like playing off our forward tees as the CR is 70 against a par of 72. It doesn’t feel right and tbh I don’t find the course, to all intents, 2 shots easier than when off back tees with CR of 71.6.

I can play back tees to my CH of 9, but with the same CH off the forward tees I struggle to play it to 7.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I don’t like playing off our forward tees as the CR is 70 against a par of 72. It doesn’t feel right and tbh I don’t find the course, to all intents, 2 shots easier than when off back tees with CR of 71.6.

I can play back tees to my CH of 9, but with the same CH off the forward tees I struggle to play it to 7.

We're similar, our yellow tees are theoretically 0.4 of a shot easier to par than the whites, most disgaree with that and think the yellows are harder.

 

[RRidges]

I haven't claimed that this happened, as far as I know every CR remains unchanged from SSS, except now of course we see the previously hidden decimal point

So the only thing you can be whingeing about is Slope affecting handicaps. There's been sufficient time for any distortion caused by Slope to feed through into reduced HIs and I don't believe that's been the case, though there are probably stats available - even perhaps at your own club.
To me, you are just an example of a classic whingeing pom (ok Scot) who can't move on from the existing system!
Speaking of which...How's the effort to get PCC calc changed? That'll be another change that would make UK different to the rest of the world again!

 

[Steve Wilkes]

We're similar, our yellow tees are theoretically 0.4 of a shot easier to par than the whites, most disgaree with that and think the yellows are harder.

Are the Yellow tees longer than the Whites, or in what way is shorter harder

 

[rulefan]

In theory, except the slop rating is even more controversial than SSS/CR.

For eg, the two courses I'm a member at are rated 118 & 126, the 118 is far harder than the 126 particularly for higher handicappers as our thick rough is 90% of the time a lost ball, my 126 course has almost no areas of thick rough at all.

To make any sense of your argument the Course Ratings are required. Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty it is an indication of relative difficulty.

 

[rulefan]

I don’t like playing off our forward tees as the CR is 70 against a par of 72. It doesn’t feel right and tbh I don’t find the course, to all intents, 2 shots easier than when off back tees with CR of 71.6.

I can play back tees to my CH of 9, but with the same CH off the forward tees I struggle to play it to 7.

Comparing CR with Par is a nonsense.
Par is simply the total of the hole pars. Hole pars can and do vary significantly. A par 4 can be anywhere between 240 and 490 yards. So a course of 18 x 240 yard par 4s has a par of 72 and length of 4320 but a course of 18 x 490 yard par 4s also has a par of 72 and length of 8820. At a rough estimate the CR for the shorter would be about 62 and the longer would be about 82.

 

[rulefan]

We're similar, our yellow tees are theoretically 0.4 of a shot easier to par than the whites, most disgaree with that and think the yellows are harder.

How does par tell you the difficulty of a course? It only tells you the sum of the hole pars. It doesn't even tell you the length and tells you nothing about bunkers etc.

 

[RRidges]

In theory, except the slop rating is even more controversial than SSS/CR.

For eg, the two courses I'm a member at are rated 118 & 126, the 118 is far harder than the 126 particularly for higher handicappers as our thick rough is 90% of the time a lost ball, my 126 course has almost no areas of thick rough at all.

That should be relatively verifiable b chcking competition results. If it is the case, then the 118 slope club should consider applying for a re-assessment.

 

[RRidges]

We're similar, our yellow tees are theoretically 0.4 of a shot easier to par than the whites, most disgaree with that and think the yellows are harder.

You appear to have some pretty daft members then! Please explain why they think that?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Whites par 70, CR 70.8, SR 132.
Yellows par 70, CR 69.1, SR 127.

I have to play 2 shots lower off the yellows to achieve roughly the same differential. I find this is "difficult" to achieve.

Shooting 76 off the whites is a better score than 75 off the yellows.
I find that 76 off the whites is "easier" to achieve than 75 off the yellows.
Hence the yellow tee course is "harder" for me.

I'm not whingeing about it. I simply get on with it and do my best whichever colour tee the comp is on that day.

 

[rulefan]

Whites par 70, CR 70.8, SR 132.
Yellows par 70, CR 69.1, SR 127.

I have to play 2 shots lower off the yellows to achieve roughly the same differential. I find this is "difficult" to achieve.

Shooting 76 off the whites is a better score than 75 off the yellows.
I find that 76 off the whites is "easier" to achieve than 75 off the yellows.
Hence the yellow tee course is "harder" for me.

I'm not whingeing about it. I simply get on with it and do my best whichever colour tee the comp is on that day.

Presumably your 'style' of play doesn't match the 'model' scratch or bogey player in the rating manual.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

So the only thing you can be whingeing about is Slope affecting handicaps. There's been sufficient time for any distortion caused by Slope to feed through into reduced HIs and I don't believe that's been the case, though there are probably stats available - even perhaps at your own club.
To me, you are just an example of a classic whingeing pom (ok Scot) who can't move on from the existing system!
Speaking of which...How's the effort to get PCC calc changed? That'll be another change that would make UK different to the rest of the world again!

Well done for finally deciphering exactly what I've been saying, though your second sentence seems to belie that, what I'm "whinging" about is having a different handicap at different courses. What I'm "whinging" about is having 3 handicaps when you rock up to a course, the most important of which most players haven't a clue how to work out, nor the slightest understanding of, including the governing bodies who supplied the information for the unsightly boards we all now display, and got them wrong. The system is shite

 

[Voyager EMH]

Presumably your 'style' of play doesn't match the 'model' scratch or bogey player in the rating manual.

Does anybody's?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Are the Yellow tees longer than the Whites, or in what way is shorter harder

Our shortish par 5 becomes a very long par 4 is where the biggest diffence occurs (9 holer so played twice). Most of the holes have a similar lay up off both tees, so you're generally not playing that much of a different club in, and none of the par 4s are reachable for all but a very small handful of today's long driving gorillas.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

To make any sense of your argument the Course Ratings are required. Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty it is an indication of relative difficulty.

That's what I said, and the higher handicaps have a far tougher time round my home track than my away track, because of the penal rough, yet slope would have you think otherwise. CR is also the wrong way around in the opinion of those used to playing both.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

How does par tell you the difficulty of a course? It only tells you the sum of the hole pars. It doesn't even tell you the length and tells you nothing about bunkers etc.

It doesn't, that's where CR v Par comes in, according to course raters, our yellows are eassier v par than our whites, most disagree with that

 

[Banchory Buddha]

That should be relatively verifiable b chcking competition results. If it is the case, then the 118 slope club should consider applying for a re-assessment.

Please explain where course raters take cometition results into account? Where can I check this as I've never seen it

 

[Banchory Buddha]

You appear to have some pretty daft members then! Please explain why they think that?

As above, they find par a harder number to achieve off the yellows than off the whites. It's not a difficult theory to get your head round is it?

 

[Swango1980]

Does anybody's?

It is nothing new though. Exactly the same arguments were made pre WHS, when players said the SSS didn't suit them at one course over another. A good example was my old course, where SSS was 3 under par 67, and SSS off whites was 69. Players would moan for ever (especially low handicappers) when they'd shoot 37-39 points and not get cut, and say yellows was far too difficult as they have to "shoot 4 under their handicap" to get a cut. I tried to explain to them that this is untrue, as their current handicap was never based on beating 36 points, so no reason why it should be for future rounds. In the most part, it was simply golfer misplaced perception, rather than being based on any kind of fact.

Obviously, though, individual golfers have strengths and weaknesses, so clearly one course set up will favour some and not others, and another course could have the reverse. If you were really nerdy and wanted to almost truly figure out what tees suit you best, you could try and take a note of your last 20 scores off yellows and last 20 scores off whites. Manually work out what you Index would be for each set of tees (would probably work best of you play a good amount of golf off both tees).