Out of bounds - question about stakes

[cliveb]

We have a hole with a ditch running down the side. The ditch itself is OOB.
However, it extends further than the last white stake. If a ball ends up in the ditch beyond the last stake, is it still OOB?

 

[Old Skier]

Likely green keepers haven’t replaced after maint, best check with club.

 

[backwoodsman]

Is there anything obvious on the far side of the ditch - which might be an indication why only part of it needs to be OOB?

 

[Foxholer]

We have a hole with a ditch running down the side. The ditch itself is OOB.
However, it extends further than the last white stake. If a ball ends up in the ditch beyond the last stake, is it still OOB?

View attachment 31330

One to refer to the Scorecard about. It's possible 'explained' there - as in 'the ditch on the right of hole nn is OOB'. Quite possibly, all that has happened is that the indicitave stakes have 'disappeared'. Was a common problem on 1 hole of a course I used to belong to, but, from memory, the scorecard covered it.

I'd figure that, without any obvious reason for OB to stop (eg hole dog-legging left), anything in the ditch would be OB.

 

[cliveb]

Is there anything obvious on the far side of the ditch - which might be an indication why only part of it needs to be OOB?

No. The other side of the ditch (all the way along) is a hedge on the boundary of our course. It is clearly the intention that all of the ditch should be OOB.

But I want to know what the rules actually say about this situation. If I'm playing in a big comp and stick my ball there, I'd like to know if it's still in play.
FYI it actually happened to a FC in a friendly social game, so didn't really matter at the time, but would be good to know for future.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

No. The other side of the ditch (all the way along) is a hedge on the boundary of our course. It is clearly the intention that all of the ditch should be OOB.

But I want to know what the rules actually say about this situation. If I'm playing in a big comp and stick my ball there, I'd like to know if it's still in play.
FYI it actually happened to a FC in a friendly social game, so didn't really matter at the time, but would be good to know for future.

Don't the highlighted bits answer your query?

 

[rulie]

No. The other side of the ditch (all the way along) is a hedge on the boundary of our course. It is clearly the intention that all of the ditch should be OOB.

But I want to know what the rules actually say about this situation. If I'm playing in a big comp and stick my ball there, I'd like to know if it's still in play.
FYI it actually happened to a FC in a friendly social game, so didn't really matter at the time, but would be good to know for future.

What does the club's Local Rules say about the ditch and OOB? It could be that the stakes are only indicating that out of bounds is there and are not defining the out of bounds line. See the definition of Out of Bounds.

 

[backwoodsman]

No. The other side of the ditch (all the way along) is a hedge on the boundary of our course. It is clearly the intention that all of the ditch should be OOB.

But I want to know what the rules actually say about this situation. If I'm playing in a big comp and stick my ball there, I'd like to know if it's still in play.
FYI it actually happened to a FC in a friendly social game, so didn't really matter at the time, but would be good to know for future.

In which case, you need to refer to the club's "documentation" (ie the score card amongst other things) as that should define what is actually OOB. If it says, say, "the ditch along the right-hand side of Hole XX", then it is the ditch itself (and the posts are only an indicator that the OOB, ie the ditch, is there). If there are no posts, then the ditch is still the definition of OOB. If it says "the line of white posts along the right hand side of hole XX" then it is the posts that define OOB, and in that case OOB only goes as far as the posts do.

Remember that white markers are often only put as visual indication of a defined OOB feature that you may not be able to see from afar - eg once you get part way down the fairway, the ditch (stated as defining OOB) maybe obvious - but not from back on the tee.

 

[cliveb]

What does the club's Local Rules say about the ditch and OOB? It could be that the stakes are only indicating that out of bounds is there and are not defining the out of bounds line. See the definition of Out of Bounds.

The club's local rules don't say anything about the ditch or OOB at that place. There is no painted line.
You refer me to the definition of out of bounds (which I had already checked), and from that I must conclude that OOB is defined by the white stakes.
I'm inclined to interpret the definition such that beyond that last stake, the OOB becomes the natural boundary of the course (which is the far side of the ditch). And that's clearly in conflict with the club's intention.

Why don't people ask their club on queries like this? ?‍

You're assuming that golf clubs know all the implications of how they've marked up their course.
The club will almost certainly say that all of the ditch is OOB.
But just because that's their intention doesn't mean it's so. According to the RoG, the way it's marked might contradict that intention.

Let's suppose I'm playing a home match against another club and my opponent's ball goes in the ditch. If I tell him it's out of bounds and he says "no, the stakes finish back there, I'm in play", then it would be helpful to actually know for sure.

I think perhaps I'll just suggest that another white stake should be added at the far end of the ditch to remove all possible doubt.

 

[rulie]

The club's local rules don't say anything about the ditch or OOB at that place. There is no painted line.
You refer me to the definition of out of bounds (which I had already checked), and from that I must conclude that OOB is defined by the white stakes.
I'm inclined to interpret the definition such that beyond that last stake, the OOB becomes the natural boundary of the course (which is the far side of the ditch). And that's clearly in conflict with the club's intention.

You're assuming that golf clubs know all the implications of how they've marked up their course.
The club will almost certainly say that all of the ditch is OOB.
But just because that's their intention doesn't mean it's so. According to the RoG, the way it's marked might contradict that intention.

Let's suppose I'm playing a home match against another club and my opponent's ball goes in the ditch. If I tell him it's out of bounds and he says "no, the stakes finish back there, I'm in play", then it would be helpful to actually know for sure.

I think perhaps I'll just suggest that another white stake should be added at the far end of the ditch to remove all possible doubt.

Two things:
You shouldn't assume that the club doesn't know what it's doing, and don't get hung up on white lines/stakes.
See below from Section 2A of Committee procedures,
Other Ways of Marking Out of Bounds

A boundary may be defined by a trench, with the ball being out of bounds if it is in or beyond the trench. Stakes may be used to draw attention to the boundary trench. These stakes are boundary objects from which free relief is not available unless otherwise specified in the Local Rules (see Model Local Rule A-5).

 

[Foxholer]

Don't get hung up on white lines. See below from Section 2A of Committee procedures,
Other Ways of Marking Out of Bounds

A boundary may be defined by a trench, with the ball being out of bounds if it is in or beyond the trench. Stakes may be used to draw attention to the boundary trench. These stakes are boundary objects from which free relief is not available unless otherwise specified in the Local Rules (see Model Local Rule A-5).

That's fine, but these things need to be documented somewhere (convenient). Otherwise golfers could far too easily make 'reasonable blunders' from circumstances they encounter that are confused by (lack of) marking(s)! As could easily be the case here! It is, indeed, 'The Committee's' responsibility to ensure that such confusion doesn't happen, but they generally depend on Ground Staff for proper marking.

 

[rulefan]

Where the stakes don't actually define the OB boundary but a trench (eg) does, then is is normal for the white stakes to be painted with a black top.
This is in effect a warning/reminder that there is OOB nearby but the stakes are not the definition.

An extract from ours.

Out of Bounds
a) ......................
b) In, on or over all trenches, fences or artificially surfaced paths adjacent to the railway embankment or the trench on the flood bank when playing the 6th hole (only).
c) ...............................
d) .......................
e) ............................
f) ......................................
g) Black topped, white stakes do not define OOB but only identify the presence of OOB

 

[cliveb]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.
I will mention it to the club and ask that they clarify things.

 

[rulie]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.
I will mention it to the club and ask that they clarify things.

That's the best approach for everyone.

 

[backwoodsman]

The club's local rules don't say anything about the ditch or OOB at that place. There is no painted line.
You refer me to the definition of out of bounds (which I had already checked), and from that I must conclude that OOB is defined by the white stakes.
I'm inclined to interpret the definition such that beyond that last stake, the OOB becomes the natural boundary of the course (which is the far side of the ditch). And that's clearly in conflict with the club's intention.

You're assuming that golf clubs know all the implications of how they've marked up their course.
The club will almost certainly say that all of the ditch is OOB.
But just because that's their intention doesn't mean it's so. According to the RoG, the way it's marked might contradict that intention.

Let's suppose I'm playing a home match against another club and my opponent's ball goes in the ditch. If I tell him it's out of bounds and he says "no, the stakes finish back there, I'm in play", then it would be helpful to actually know for sure.

I think perhaps I'll just suggest that another white stake should be added at the far end of the ditch to remove all possible doubt.

Is not the highlighted bit rather unusual? Pretty much every course I've been to, specifies areas of OOB on the scorecard under local rules ?

 

[chrisd]

Shouldn't this be in the "Out of Bounds" section?

I'm here all week. ?

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse ??