OOB ruling.
- Thread starter Golfmmad
- Start date
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
As I read it Rule 19-1 a and b make a distinction between a situation where a stroke is made at a ball other than on the green (19-1a) or at a ball on the green(19-1b).
In that case as I see it the relevant issue is where the stroke is made from not where the ball is when it "comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency".
Under 19-1a where the ball was when it was picked up by the dog is only relevant in respect of whether it is dropped (if off the green) or placed (if on the green). The Rule says that "the ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped, or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the outside agency..." Based on Decision 19-1/6, I understand that to be the point at which it is picked up by the dog.
Decision 19-1/6 is relevant in my view as it relates to a stroke made off the green. It confirms that the ball if picked up by the dog should be placed at the point it was picked up. If the ball had been off the green when the dog picked it up it would have had to be dropped at that point.
If the stoke had been made on the green the stroke is cancelled and replayed (19-1b and Decision 19-1/7).
So my interpretation of the OP is:
The stroke is played from off the green, the ball in motion is picked up by a dog and at that point is deemed to have come to rest in a "moving or animate outside agency". Rule 19-1a therefore applies and the ball should dropped at the point it was picked up. As that point is OOB the ball is therefore OOB.
I hope I have made my reasoning a bit clearer. I would agree though that this rule isn't as clear as it might be. I'm also a bit surprised there isn't a decision which is a bit closer to the OP situation.
Time for Colin or Duncan to clarify maybe.
Whereditgo
Journeyman Pro
Golfmmad
Tour Winner
What surprises me is that someone could envisage this scenario in the first place
It wasn't "Envisaged", it actually happened, hence the question.
DCB
Well-known member
mashie, what happens if you hit a shot OB and it bounces back in after hitting atree ? Do you say the ball is OOB ? Do you go back and replay the shot under penalty ? No, it's a rub of the green.
We'll see if Colin or Duncan can clarify but I do think you're still reading too much into 19-1
We'll see if Colin or Duncan can clarify but I do think you're still reading too much into 19-1
doublebogey7
Head Pro
The difference is a tree is not an outside agency. In my view mashie has got it right.
pbrown7582
Money List Winner
an interesting debate this one, obviously the moving ball part is the issue otherwise a ball seen to be moved by an outside agency (the dog) has to be replaced?
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
That would be my argument on that point. However if the ball was deflected by the dog back in bounds it would indeed be a rub of the green and the ball would be in bounds. I think the outcome depends on whether the ball is picked up and what the significance of that is. 19-1a indicates that the ball coming to rest on or in an animate outside agency is an exception to the rub of the green provision in 19-1, which applies to a ball stopped or deflected. Decision 19-1/6 confirms the difference between the ball being deflected by the dog (in which case the ball is played as it lies) and being picked up by the dog (in which case the is ball replaced where it was picked up).
I think the fact the ball has been picked up changes things, but I do accept that this is a grey area and can think of a couple of other tricky scenarios.
1. Ball lands in back of greenkeeper's truck which is OOB but is being driven onto the course and which is then parked by the greenkeeper adjacent to the green of the hole being played. Greenkeeper is unaware that the ball is in the truck. OOB or drop by the green?
2. Ball is caught in mid air OOB by a bird (I know!!!) but bird flies over the course and drops the ball on the green. OOB or played as it lies.
Both would seem to be rubs of the green (second scenario perhaps more so) but by my reading of the Rule would, by analogy with the dog in the OP, be OOB.
So very happy to be corrected on my interpretation of the OP.
Maybe one for the Rules page in the magazine?
Colin L
Tour Winner
OK, here's my take from afar.
The applicable Rule is 19-1. The ball is in motion after a stroke from off the green. Had the ball simply struck the unfortunate mutt on the head and bounced back from OOB, it would be a simple rub of the green, play it as it lies. But when the dog, a moving outside agency, picks the ball up, the ball has come to rest in the outside agency: it is still moving relative to the ground but not to the dog so exception 19-1a is applicable. It could be your ball ends up on a greenkeeper's tractor, in the pouch of a kangaroo, in beak of a bird or the jaws of a dog - if they are on the move and take the ball with them it is the point at which the ball first stopped on or in them that matters. That is clear from 19-1a. So when your ball is in bounds you drop at that point and if the point is OOB, then you have to proceed under stroke and distance.
I don't think there is need for a Decision since it just seems to me to be what 19-1a says.
The applicable Rule is 19-1. The ball is in motion after a stroke from off the green. Had the ball simply struck the unfortunate mutt on the head and bounced back from OOB, it would be a simple rub of the green, play it as it lies. But when the dog, a moving outside agency, picks the ball up, the ball has come to rest in the outside agency: it is still moving relative to the ground but not to the dog so exception 19-1a is applicable. It could be your ball ends up on a greenkeeper's tractor, in the pouch of a kangaroo, in beak of a bird or the jaws of a dog - if they are on the move and take the ball with them it is the point at which the ball first stopped on or in them that matters. That is clear from 19-1a. So when your ball is in bounds you drop at that point and if the point is OOB, then you have to proceed under stroke and distance.
I don't think there is need for a Decision since it just seems to me to be what 19-1a says.
Very interesting one this, which I have spoken to my contacts at The R&A about and they have asked me to get a little bit more info about the incident...
1) Was it actually in a competition?
2) How far OOB was the ball when the dog picked it up?
3) What was the area like where the dog picked up the rolling ball - ie any trees, stumps, bushes, walls or slopes that could possibly have deflected the ball back in bounds before it came to rest?
Colin L
Tour Winner
Jezz
If your contacts are asking questions 2 and 3, they are presumably contemplating that the dog's action might be considered deliberate and the Note to 19-1 would be applicable. That would be a matter of saying that a dog doing what dogs do by chasing and picking moving objects up, is performing a "considered" action. Certainly the situation is different from a moving ball simply lodging accidentally in something so clarification will be helpful.
If your contacts are asking questions 2 and 3, they are presumably contemplating that the dog's action might be considered deliberate and the Note to 19-1 would be applicable. That would be a matter of saying that a dog doing what dogs do by chasing and picking moving objects up, is performing a "considered" action. Certainly the situation is different from a moving ball simply lodging accidentally in something so clarification will be helpful.
I guess so - will advise accordingly once I've got this extra info to forward on...
Golfmmad
Tour Winner
Wow! Didn't realise.........
Thanks for the interest JeezE
The guy who asked the question is my Son in Laws friend, so I'll contact him this evening and ask the questions.
Watch this space......:mmm:
Tom C
Hacker
Duncan, my take on this is:
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up (Rule 19-1a). Decision 19-1/6
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up (Rule 19-1a). Decision 19-1/6
Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
Just thinking about it the other way round, if the dog snatched my ball that was rolling down the middle of the fairway then ran OOB and dropped it, I would expect the rules to cover me replacing it in the fairway.
With that in mind I'd say the ball is OOB provided it looked like it would finish OOB without canine assistance.
No rules quoted or looked up, just my take on it.
With that in mind I'd say the ball is OOB provided it looked like it would finish OOB without canine assistance.
No rules quoted or looked up, just my take on it.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Yes, but as I said above, I don't think a Decision is needed for what is a straightforward application of 19-1a and I'm not sure why we have D19-1/6 other than, in conjunction with D19-1/7, to make the distinction between the procedures for a ball played from off the green and one played from on the green.
The only way I see there being a different ruling is if the dog's action in picking up the ball is considered a deliberate action. If an outside agency deliberately deflects or stops a moving ball, you have to estimate where the ball was likely to have ended up and drop there. If the dog's action is said to be deliberate, then Jezz's contacts are probably asking these questions in order to establish whether there was a possibility that had the ball not been taken by the dog, it might have bounced off something and gone back in bounds.
I'll be surprised* if that is the outcome because the answer in D19-1/6 would be different if the dog's action in picking up the ball were considered deliberate: the answer would then be that the position of the ball had it not been unimpeded should be estimated. I reckon the Decision shows that the dog's action is not contemplated as being deliberate.
*It wouldn't be the first time when it comes to the Rules of Golf.
Tom C
Hacker
The decision is there to cover 2 points
1. If the ball is deflected by the dog back into bounds it would be played from where it comes to rest.
2. If the ball is picked up by the dog, as in this case it must be placed at the point where the dog picked it up from. Unfortunately out of bounds.
1. If the ball is deflected by the dog back into bounds it would be played from where it comes to rest.
2. If the ball is picked up by the dog, as in this case it must be placed at the point where the dog picked it up from. Unfortunately out of bounds.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Points 1 and 2 are, of course, what I have already said would be how to proceed, unless complicated by our R&A friends saying that the dog's actions are deliberate. My point is that 19-1 and 19-1a lead straightforwardly to these rulings. Decisions are not there to simply to say what the rules already say but to interpret and rule on particular situations - in this case on the green which is not the situation described by the OP. What I do draw from them, however, is that the dog's action is not contemplated as deliberate and that this, to be consistent, should be applied to the OP's situation.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Colin,
I agree.
Earlier I made the mistake of not relating the moving ball/moving dog situation to the basic wording of 19-1a ie the concept of the ball 'coming to rest' when it ceased moving relative to the dog. On the basis that this is what is envisaged by the wording it's straight forward.
Having debated the concept of anything other than a human being considered to have made a deliberate act it will of course be useful to get clarification on this; be difficult to rule on if dog's, seagulls, etc can be considered to take dleiberate acts as contemplated within the exception to 19! Even more interesting to understand what process the RO or committee would take to establish if the act was deliberate or not!!!
Tom C
Hacker
Colin, the fact that the ball ended up on the green is immaterial, the ball was played from of the green and the dogs actions are contemplated to be deliberate.
