Official WHS Survey

[Steve Wilkes]

That was my one complaint when I filled in the survey, it's just far too easy to manipulate your handicap upwards if you are that way inclined.

Before playing on Sunday I mentioned the email my club sent out about GP scores for next year to another member on the putting green and he said "Good, it's needed here. I can name guys who won a comp on Saturday and then put in terrible GP scores on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday so they would get their shots back for the next weekend comp again."

I understand under CONGU it maybe wasn't reactive enough for someone going through a terrible run or someone coming back from injury but they need to find some sort of happy medium.

If you are that way inclined , any system would be no problem, Also the anybody doing the Monday to Friday thingy at a club should be up before the committee and expelled from the club

 

[wjemather]

That was my one complaint when I filled in the survey, it's just far too easy to manipulate your handicap upwards if you are that way inclined.

Before playing on Sunday I mentioned the email my club sent out about GP scores for next year to another member on the putting green and he said "Good, it's needed here. I can name guys who won a comp on Saturday and then put in terrible GP scores on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday so they would get their shots back for the next weekend comp again."

I understand under CONGU it maybe wasn't reactive enough for someone going through a terrible run or someone coming back from injury but they need to find some sort of happy medium.

If this were true, any competent handicap committee would be all over it.
In any case, any such activity should be reported to the handicap committee - with evidence - for them to investigate and take any necessary action.

 

[Orikoru]

That was my one complaint when I filled in the survey, it's just far too easy to manipulate your handicap upwards if you are that way inclined.

Before playing on Sunday I mentioned the email my club sent out about GP scores for next year to another member on the putting green and he said "Good, it's needed here. I can name guys who won a comp on Saturday and then put in terrible GP scores on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday so they would get their shots back for the next weekend comp again."

I understand under CONGU it maybe wasn't reactive enough for someone going through a terrible run or someone coming back from injury but they need to find some sort of happy medium.

I would argue that that's pretty outrageous behaviour, not the norm, and that this individual should be interviewed about that rather than the whole process of GP cards be boycotted. While it's silly that someone can do that, there must also be checks so that someone can be called out for something as blatant as that?

 

[Springveldt]

If you are that way inclined , any system would be no problem, Also the anybody doing the Monday to Friday thingy at a club should be up before the committee and expelled from the club

If this were true, any competent handicap committee would be all over it.
In any case, any such activity should be reported to the handicap committee - with evidence - for them to investigate and take any necessary action.

You would think so but since I joined the running theme I've gotten from members is that they believe there are a large contingent of "bandits" at the club. Everyone I've asked (granted only about 10 people) about the email with the 5 GP's scores have been in support of it even if England Golf tell them they can't do it.

WHS is ridiculously easy to manipulate, maybe they need to adjust the limits on upward handicap movement per year/month/week whatever but most club golfers I talk to that play in all the competitions seem to believe it's far too open to manipulation.

 

[clubchamp98]

If you are that way inclined , any system would be no problem, Also the anybody doing the Monday to Friday thingy at a club should be up before the committee and expelled from the club

You would have to prove he was doing it delibaretly ( difficult I would say ) as this is what the system is asking you to do.

“I had a weeks holiday guv so got some golf in what’s the problem”?

It’s easy to manipulate until that changes nothing will.

 

[wjemather]

You would think so but since I joined the running theme I've gotten from members is that they believe there are a large contingent of "bandits" at the club. Everyone I've asked (granted only about 10 people) about the email with the 5 GP's scores have been in support of it even if England Golf tell them they can't do it.

WHS is ridiculously easy to manipulate, maybe they need to adjust the limits on upward handicap movement per year/month/week whatever but most club golfers I talk to that play in all the competitions seem to believe it's far to open to manipulation.

It's evident that lack of WHS knowledge is an issue at your club from the top down. Hopefully that will start to be addressed now that England Golf are aware.

 

[Backache]

I suspect any system that requires significant accusations of manipulation to paying customers when one cannot be certain is a poorly designed system.

 

[Springveldt]

I would argue that that's pretty outrageous behaviour, not the norm, and that this individual should be interviewed about that rather than the whole process of GP cards be boycotted. While it's silly that someone can do that, there must also be checks so that someone can be called out for something as blatant as that?

It may be blatant but it's also plausible.



That's a selection of my scores in my last 20. That 89, 93 and (*) (I walked off after 10 holes as I couldn't find the middle of the face and had lost 3 balls by that point) were all entered in a 10 day period. It's obvious I was playing terrible for those 10 days for some reason so if I'd had more time and played more golf I'd likely have entered more bad scores. What happens if someone has a week off work, plays everyday and they are going through a period like that?

 

[Springveldt]

It's evident that lack of WHS knowledge is an issue at your club from the top down. Hopefully that will start to be addressed now that England Golf are aware.

What are they meant to do? Accuse members of purposely entering bad scores?.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

You would have to prove he was doing it delibaretly ( difficult I would say ) as this is what the system is asking you to do.

“I had a weeks holiday guv so got some golf in what’s the problem”?

It’s easy to manipulate until that changes nothing will.

WHS is for everyone to get an individual Handicap Index of their golfing ability, Clubs are trying to use this WHS to run their competitions, so they need to weed out the cheats.
Rule 1 should be you won XYZ comp playing off 24 , but playing to 14 , you are now 14 for the next so and so comps and not ok this time next week you are 24 again

 

[Orikoru]

It may be blatant but it's also plausible.

View attachment 54671

That's a selection of my scores in my last 20. That 89, 93 and (*) (I walked off after 10 holes as I couldn't find the middle of the face and had lost 3 balls by that point) were all entered in a 10 day period. It's obvious I was playing terrible for those 10 days for some reason so if I'd had more time and played more golf I'd likely have entered more bad scores. What happens if someone has a week off work, plays everyday and they are going through a period like that?

I always knew you were a manipulator. Guards! Seize him!

I guess five GP rounds in five days is excessive and looks bad if they're all non-counting rounds. I don't think the answer is to effectively stop all GP cards as your club has done though.

 

[Springveldt]

WHS is for everyone to get an individual Handicap Index of their golfing ability, Clubs are trying to use this WHS to run their competitions, so they need to weed out the cheats.
Rule 1 should be you won XYZ comp playing off 24 , but playing to 14 , you are now 14 for the next so and so comps and not ok this time next week you are 24 again

But that would be a club rule then and totally against England Golf guidance. You can't stop people entering GP rounds and you definitely can't accuse them of cheating as golf is hard and people go through waves of form.

 

[wjemather]

What are they meant to do? Accuse members of purposely entering bad scores?.

Investigate, educate and apply any necessary remediation/restrictions/sanctions. No-one wants to be subject to sanctions or be labelled a cheat, so education (and possibly a bit of remediation of the handicap record) is usually the end of it.
Handicap committees have the handicap records and many reports at their fingertips to assist in analysis; they can also speak to the individual concerned and the people they have been playing with.

 

[Springveldt]

Investigate, educate and apply any necessary remediation/restrictions/sanctions. No-one wants to be subject to sanctions or be labelled a cheat, so education (and possibly a bit of remediation of the handicap record) is usually the end of it.
Handicap committees have the handicap records and many reports at their fingertips; they can also speak to the individual concerned and the people they have been playing with.

Sounds like a lot of hassle for the handicap committee. You investigate and find they played on those days and have entered their cards as they are meant to, then what? You talk to who they played with and they say "yep, played with him and he had a shocker".

What's next? You tell them they can't enter any more cards until they get better? Bar them from comps? You kick them out the club for being crap?

Seems like a lot of hoops for volunteers to be jumping through to try and prove the system is fine and doesn't need changed.

 

[abjectplop]

You can only go up by 5 in 12 months. How much realistically are people manipulating their handicap upwards in 5 days?! Surely if you put in 5 crap scores they're unlikely to be knocking off 5 of your best ones.

 

[clubchamp98]

WHS is for everyone to get an individual Handicap Index of their golfing ability, Clubs are trying to use this WHS to run their competitions, so they need to weed out the cheats.
Rule 1 should be you won XYZ comp playing off 24 , but playing to 14 , you are now 14 for the next so and so comps and not ok this time next week you are 24 again

Totally agree but the system is designed to put lots of cards in.

Imho all the excuses about improving golfers shooting exceptional scores is coming home to roost.
There not improving golfers they are just using a poor system to their advantage while doing nothing wrong.

 

[wjemather]

Sounds like a lot of hassle for the handicap committee. You investigate and find they played on those days and have entered their cards as they are meant to, then what? You talk to who they played with and they say "yep, played with him and he had a shocker".

What's next? You tell them they can't enter any more cards until they get better? Bar them from comps? You kick them out the club for being crap?

Seems like a lot of hoops for volunteers to be jumping through to try and prove the system is fine and doesn't need changed.

It really isn't a hassle - such investigations are very rare but they are a necessary part of the job (regardless of the handicap system in use).
While sanctions may appease the baying mob, in the absence of any wrongdoing, they would not be appropriate.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I suspect any system that requires significant accusations of manipulation to paying customers when one cannot be certain is a poorly designed system.

I hear this all the time, but nobody has come up with a system that would work in all scenarios.
1) Reflect golfers whose ability rapidly increases or decreases
2) Reflect golfers who only play well in comps or vice-a-verse
3) Is virtually impossible to manipulate or cheat ones handicap up or down
4) Reflect golfers who play regular and golfers who play half a dozen times a year
5) Limit golfers to having their day in the sun
This list is endless

 

[clubchamp98]

It's evident that lack of WHS knowledge is an issue at your club from the top down. Hopefully that will start to be addressed now that England Golf are aware.

How longs this system been going?

“Things will start to be addressed “
I wouldn’t bet on it.

 

[clubchamp98]

But that would be a club rule then and totally against England Golf guidance. You can't stop people entering GP rounds and you definitely can't accuse them of cheating as golf is hard and people go through waves of form.

Tell me about it .my games shocking atm.
7 hcap I’m more likley to shoot 89 not 79.
But I had 5 bad scores coming off so it hasn’t moved one iota.
That’s about to change with four good scores.
I’ll be dangerous off 12