Non-submittance of Medal scorecards

[jpjeffery]

Today is an alternate day of our March Medal (which is a Handicap Qualifier). Two members declared their participation today at just after 11am. At 16:16 one of them sent a message to the club which read "Neither Bob or myself will be submitting a card for the monthly medal." (name changed to protect the guilty etc.).

A few minutes later I asked them to explain. but I've not had a response.

Should they be issued a Penalty Score in WHS? I believe this is what would happen if they had declared their intent at the Pro Shop or on the MyEG app...

 

[IanMcC]

If by you saying that they 'declared their participation' means that they signed in for the comp, then yes. Penalty Score of CR + CH is applicable here.
I would also warn them that repeated instances could see further action, like removal of Index.

 

[rulefan]

Today is an alternate day of our March Medal (which is a Handicap Qualifier). Two members declared their participation today at just after 11am. At 16:16 one of them sent a message to the club which read "Neither Bob or myself will be submitting a card for the monthly medal." (name changed to protect the guilty etc.).

A few minutes later I asked them to explain. but I've not had a response.

Should they be issued a Penalty Score in WHS? I believe this is what would happen if they had declared their intent at the Pro Shop or on the MyEG app...

Did they formally register?

 

[wjemather]

Today is an alternate day of our March Medal (which is a Handicap Qualifier). Two members declared their participation today at just after 11am. At 16:16 one of them sent a message to the club which read "Neither Bob or myself will be submitting a card for the monthly medal." (name changed to protect the guilty etc.).

A few minutes later I asked them to explain. but I've not had a response.

Should they be issued a Penalty Score in WHS? I believe this is what would happen if they had declared their intent at the Pro Shop or on the MyEG app...

All competition rounds are considered pre-registered for handicapping, so if there is no valid reason for failing to return a score then yes, a penalty score should be applied on the following day (it must not be applied on the same day as it would then be included in the PCC). The players also need reminding of their responsibilities under the rules of handicapping and potential consequences of persistent lapses.

 

[Swango1980]

All competition rounds are considered pre-registered for handicapping, so if there is no valid reason for failing to return a score then yes, a penalty score should be applied on the following day (it must not be applied on the same day as it would then be included in the PCC). The players also need reminding of their responsibilities under the rules of handicapping and potential consequences of persistent lapses.

Just to add to that, the penalty score applied will depend on the reason they are not submitting a score.

From memory, if they are not submitting a score as they don't want a cut, the penalty score is equal to their best Score Diff in last 20. I'd imagine this is unlikely.

If they are doing it because they don't want to submit a bad score on their record, the penalty equal to the worst score in last 20.

Any other reason equal to the score they'd need to play to their course handicap.

And, after being warned, if they continue to do this tougher action can be taken.

 

[jim8flog]

It is worth setting up a 'Code of Conduct' with regards to competitions so that it is in your club rule book and any sanctions cannot be argued against.

We did this and managed to get the number of not returned cards down quite considerably. We did go as far as suspension of handicap with one player who was clearly handicap protecting.

I wanted to have the penalty scores of - best score higher handicaps and worst score for lower handicaps but appears the software will only let us set up one. I believe England golf treat it as 18 NRs.

 

[wjemather]

I wanted to have the penalty scores of - best score higher handicaps and worst score for lower handicaps but appears the software will only let us set up one. I believe England golf treat it as 18 NRs.

Your preference seem to be based on the idea that higher handicappers want higher handicaps and low handicappers want lower handicaps, and that penalty scores are simply a punishment. The reality is that in a rolling average system, every intent to submit a score must be fulfilled in some way to maintain the proper circulation of scores. In the absence of any known underhand intention on the part of the player, a neutral score is entered - their 'play-to-handicap' score. While this more than likely results in an immediate change of handicap, over the course of the 20 rounds, it does have a neutral effect.

18 NRs (or nett double bogeys) is not a function of the England Golf system and has been explicitly advised against by them. However, it commonly remains the score submitted to WHS by competition software - an irritating legacy from the old CONGU UHS system, where this was correct. Penalty scores can only be applied directly on the England Golf system, and there is no restriction on the adjusted gross score that is entered. The automatic penalty score for unfulfilled general play intents is a 'play to handicap' score (as detailed above), and this is also the default recommendation for manually entered penalty scores, or the uncertified actual score.

 

[jpjeffery]

Did they formally register?

Yes

 

[jpjeffery]

So, I think we're in agreement that it's a penalty score, but I'm not sure how to enter it.

Do I...

1. Enter their cards in our scoring system (MasterScoreboard) as 18 NRs (perhaps marking them as DQs), then publish to England Golf WHS then tick the 'Penalty Score' box in WHS, or...
2. Just enter a card in WHS for each of them, with 18x(par+2)

 

[wjemather]

So, I think we're in agreement that it's a penalty score, but I'm not sure how to enter it.

Do I...

1. Enter their cards in our scoring system (MasterScoreboard) as 18 NRs (perhaps marking them as DQs), then publish to England Golf WHS then tick the 'Penalty Score' box in WHS, or...
2. Just enter a card in WHS for each of them, with 18x(pars+2)

Neither. The penalty score needs to be entered on WHS as an adjusted gross equal to their play to handicap score (CR + CH).

 

[IanMcC]

.....and remember to tick the Penalty Score radio button. If you enter them on MasterScoreboard it will write that result over to WHS also, so I wouldnt bother. Just enter it in the WHS Portal.

 

[jpjeffery]

A few minutes later I asked them to explain. but I've not had a response.

By the way, I got a response back from one of them (the same one as sent the first message) just before 11pm:
"Don't worry about it."

Not sure that's quite the optimal approach to gathering any sympathy from the competitions secretary!

 

[jpjeffery]

Neither. The penalty score needs to be entered on WHS as an adjusted gross equal to their play to handicap score (CR + CH).

As our members have actually been pretty good I've never had to do this before, so where do I find, or how do I calculate, this?

 

[woofers]

As our members have actually been pretty good I've never had to do this before, so where do I find, or how do I calculate, this?

Fairly straightforward. The CR for the tees played from may be on the scorecard but should be easily found on the EG App and the EG WHS portal, as an example let’s say it’s 71.4, so rounded it’s 71.
On the EG WHS portal, go to Scores, select the date and ensure the Mode (top right of the screen) is set to Adjusted Gross. Enter the players name and select the tees for the competition, the Course Handicap will be shown, e.g 13. Add this to the CR, so in this example enter 84 as the Adjusted Gross Score. Tick the Penalty Score box, and Save.
Job done.

 

[HeftyHacker]

Following on from this, how should penalty scores be applied for NRs midway through a round but then the card is submitted?

eg. if somebody completes 4 holes and then NRs on the 5th and doesn't enter a score for the remaining 13 holes, what should be entered into their scoring record against their handicap?

Currently my club just puts net double bogey for each hole not completely but this doesn't feel correct to me at all and can lead to clear handicap manipulation. A quick dip check of a couple of "suspected" offenders shows that this appears to be happening.

I want to email the handicap and comps committee outlining my concerns but I wanted to be able to give the correct solution rather than just say that what they are doing is wrong.

 

[wjemather]

Following on from this, how should penalty scores be applied for NRs midway through a round but then the card is submitted?

eg. if somebody completes 4 holes and then NRs on the 5th and doesn't enter a score for the remaining 13 holes, what should be entered into their scoring record against their handicap?

Currently my club just puts net double bogey for each hole not completely but this doesn't feel correct to me at all and can lead to clear handicap manipulation. A quick dip check of a couple of "suspected" offenders shows that this appears to be happening.

I want to email the handicap and comps committee outlining my concerns but I wanted to be able to give the correct solution rather than just say that what they are doing is wrong.

The actual score is unacceptable for handicapping and must be discarded if the minimum number of holes have not been started. If there is no valid reason (per the rules of handicapping) for abandoning, the guidance for penalty scores is the same as for unreturned scores. If there is a valid reason, depending on whether the minimum number of hole have been started or not, either the score entered and completed with DNPs for the hole(s) not played, or the intent is deleted.

Nett double bogey is not an acceptable score entry unless that is the score achieved. Sounds like your handicap committee need to seek assistance from their county advisor, as I suspect they are currently failing in many areas and could use a full refresher.

 

[Swango1980]

The actual score is unacceptable for handicapping and must be discarded. If there is no valid reason (per the rules of handicapping) for abandoning, the guidance for penalty scores is the same as for unreturned scores. If there is a valid reason, the intent is simply deleted.

Nett double bogey is not an acceptable score entry unless that is the score achieved. Sounds like your handicap committee need to seek assistance from their county advisor, as I suspect they are currently failing in many areas and could use a full refresher.

I wonder if the ISVs could be more helpful.

You are absolutely right, that if the handicap committee were on the ball, as you'd like to think they should be, then they'd apply Penalty Scores using the guidance from the rules of handicapping. However, I suspect many Committees out there just don't even see this as an issue, yet. Perhaps they think the technology will just get things right. Or that they think they can just did what they did before, and somehow everything will be fine.

If a player has signed in to a comp, then I presume if no score is entered afterwards, there will be a warning to the person running the comp? Could there no be a series of messages, such as:

• Player A Score not submitted, enter score now: Yes / No
• If No, Do you wish to enter a Penalty Score or Remove Player:
• If Penalty Score: Penalty Score = CR+CH (if reason for NR is not known), Penalty Score = CR+Worst Score in Last 20 (if purpose of NR was avoid handicap increase), Penalty Score = CR+Best Score in Last 20 (if purpose of NR was avoid handicap decrease)

Not saying all Committees would still get it right, but the options are sort of flashing right in front of their eyes, so it is brought to their attention. The automatic penalty score could simply be CR+CH, with the other 2 options having to go through an extra step to select. Just to stop the odd handicap sec from religiously picking one of the other options, because of personal preference.

P.S. I'm not sure how Club V1 and the other ISVs currently do this, so making the assumption the way they do it is probably less than perfect at the moment.

 

[wjemather]

I wonder if the ISVs could be more helpful.

You are absolutely right, that if the handicap committee were on the ball, as you'd like to think they should be, then they'd apply Penalty Scores using the guidance from the rules of handicapping. However, I suspect many Committees out there just don't even see this as an issue, yet. Perhaps they think the technology will just get things right. Or that they think they can just did what they did before, and somehow everything will be fine.

If a player has signed in to a comp, then I presume if no score is entered afterwards, there will be a warning to the person running the comp? Could there no be a series of messages, such as:

• Player A Score not submitted, enter score now: Yes / No
• If No, Do you wish to enter a Penalty Score or Remove Player:
• If Penalty Score: Penalty Score = CR+CH (if reason for NR is not known), Penalty Score = CR+Worst Score in Last 20 (if purpose of NR was avoid handicap increase), Penalty Score = CR+Best Score in Last 20 (if purpose of NR was avoid handicap decrease)

Not saying all Committees would still get it right, but the options are sort of flashing right in front of their eyes, so it is brought to their attention. The automatic penalty score could simply be CR+CH, with the other 2 options having to go through an extra step to select. Just to stop the odd handicap sec from religiously picking one of the other options, because of personal preference.

P.S. I'm not sure how Club V1 and the other ISVs currently do this, so making the assumption the way they do it is probably less than perfect at the moment.

Of course they could. However, past and current indications are that most won't, and nor will the unions take it up with them or put any pressure on them to do so (e.g. by amending their certified software specification).

The way most ISVs deal with unreturned comp scores is an incoherent mess rooted in the 18xNDBs of UHS - e.g. ClubV1 gives the option of 18ndb or ignore! - when all that is required is the generation of intents (basically duplicating the existing general play methodology).

 

[jim8flog]

Following on from this, how should penalty scores be applied for NRs midway through a round but then the card is submitted?

eg. if somebody completes 4 holes and then NRs on the 5th and doesn't enter a score for the remaining 13 holes, what should be entered into their scoring record against their handicap?

Currently my club just puts net double bogey for each hole not completely but this doesn't feel correct to me at all and can lead to clear handicap manipulation. A quick dip check of a couple of "suspected" offenders shows that this appears to be happening.

I want to email the handicap and comps committee outlining my concerns but I wanted to be able to give the correct solution rather than just say that what they are doing is wrong.

In the first instance they should not be putting NR for holes not started they should be putting in NS (hole not started) as the automatic scores are different between the two.

 

[Swango1980]

Of course they could. However, past and current indications are that most won't, and nor will the unions take it up with them or put any pressure on them to do so (e.g. by amending their certified software specification).

The way most ISVs deal with unreturned comp scores is an incoherent mess rooted in the 18xNDBs of UHS - e.g. ClubV1 gives the option of 18ndb or ignore! - when all that is required is the generation of intents (basically duplicating the existing general play methodology).

Do you think the National Handicap Authorities might ever adapt their handicapping software to also allow clubs to manage competitions? They already took control of handicaps, just wondering if they could monetise their software to also allow it to manage comps and integrate with handicaps the way they think would work best? If the other ISVs are inadequate, then I can imagine clubs in England, for example, switching to a MyEG produced competition management system.

Perhaps it it easier to say than do.