Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
How did you get it?
If it cant be learned or taught do you think some are born with it or inherited it or its simply genetic
How did you get it?
If it cant be learned or taught do you think some are born with it or inherited it or its simply genetic
I am not trying to turn this thread into I hit far
But to answer above, from my own experience i have in all sports been able to hit, kick, punch, throw very hard (Control is another matter) but for POWER i have it and it was not taught to me, i simply possess it
That simple, its natural
But to answer above, from my own experience i have in all sports been able to hit, kick, punch, throw very hard (Control is another matter) but for POWER i have it and it was not taught to me, i simply possess it
That simple, its natural
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Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
How far you hit it is irrelevant for the thread
Were you born with or did you inherit this power as a natural ability though (could you out-punch, throw, kick harder and greater distances than the other babies in the maternity ward) maybe you could & it just wasn't tested = natural ability
Or did your activities, diet etc in those early formative years develop a physic & basic technique that allowed you to out throw/punch others = a practiced (learned) ability
Qwerty
Tour Winner
Greg Norman Started playing age 15, H'cap 27. Within 18 months he was Off Scratch. I can't think of any better examples of Natural Talent.
I think before golf he was into Rugby & Surfing.
Maybe it could've been the Surfing that aided his Weight transition at Impact..
Im off to Blackpool to Carve up some Barrels.:thup:
I think before golf he was into Rugby & Surfing.
Maybe it could've been the Surfing that aided his Weight transition at Impact..
Im off to Blackpool to Carve up some Barrels.:thup:
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Simbo
Tour Rookie
Got to say this is a cracking thread, very strong arguments for both sides here out across very respectfully.
How is natural ability accurately quantified??
For me it's doing something with no coaching from anyone other than yourself. Just picking up a set of clubs and going to play, getting a handicap then getting to scratch. That's natural ability. Once you start taking lessons/seeing shrinks and the like it then becomes nurture.
Would messi have been one of the greatest attackers in football if he hadn't played for Barcelona since he was 13, in a team full of great players that allowed him to develop and show his attacking skills without the real need to worry about losing the ball?? Pretty safe in the knowledge that if he did lose the ball he has one of the best midfielders in the world right behind him to mop up his mess, then one of the best defenders in the world behind him should the midfielder mess it up. That's a big pressure remover for him.
I'm in the nurture camp although I can see LP points.
How is natural ability accurately quantified??
For me it's doing something with no coaching from anyone other than yourself. Just picking up a set of clubs and going to play, getting a handicap then getting to scratch. That's natural ability. Once you start taking lessons/seeing shrinks and the like it then becomes nurture.
Would messi have been one of the greatest attackers in football if he hadn't played for Barcelona since he was 13, in a team full of great players that allowed him to develop and show his attacking skills without the real need to worry about losing the ball?? Pretty safe in the knowledge that if he did lose the ball he has one of the best midfielders in the world right behind him to mop up his mess, then one of the best defenders in the world behind him should the midfielder mess it up. That's a big pressure remover for him.
I'm in the nurture camp although I can see LP points.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Two newborn babies A & B (There may be marginal differences in their size, weight & physique)
What they do (for want of a more scientific age rage) between 4 & 14 yrs old will determine how much ‘natural ability’ or aptitude they have for any given task for the rest of their lives
Baby A is raised in a very active household always playing games, sports and other activities that develop hand/eye coordination, physicality, balance, strength etc etc etc
Baby B is raised in a very academic household with puzzles, study and educational mind stimulating activities etc etc
Both turn up at a golf range for the first time aged 30
At least initially A will outperform B at the range, (more often than not) Swap them at birth and the result will be reversed (more often than not)
A will more likely pick up the fundamentals of hitting a golf ball easier but it’s not down to a natural ability (it is after all what he did in his formative years)
B will more likely pick up and understand the ball flight laws easier but it’s not a natural ability (it is after all what he did in his formative years)
Initial performances and aptitude are guided and influenced more on what they were taught & learned as children than any inherent ability
It might appear that some things just comes naturally easier to them... but it’s not a natural ability
(but it is natural behaviour in the sense that its natural to grow & develop and take part in activities)
And with that I'm off to battle rush hour traffic....
What they do (for want of a more scientific age rage) between 4 & 14 yrs old will determine how much ‘natural ability’ or aptitude they have for any given task for the rest of their lives
Baby A is raised in a very active household always playing games, sports and other activities that develop hand/eye coordination, physicality, balance, strength etc etc etc
Baby B is raised in a very academic household with puzzles, study and educational mind stimulating activities etc etc
Both turn up at a golf range for the first time aged 30
At least initially A will outperform B at the range, (more often than not) Swap them at birth and the result will be reversed (more often than not)
A will more likely pick up the fundamentals of hitting a golf ball easier but it’s not down to a natural ability (it is after all what he did in his formative years)
B will more likely pick up and understand the ball flight laws easier but it’s not a natural ability (it is after all what he did in his formative years)
Initial performances and aptitude are guided and influenced more on what they were taught & learned as children than any inherent ability
It might appear that some things just comes naturally easier to them... but it’s not a natural ability
(but it is natural behaviour in the sense that its natural to grow & develop and take part in activities)
And with that I'm off to battle rush hour traffic....
I think in reality most will agree that it's a combination of innate and learned skills. It's then the make-up of the split that we can argue about! I personally lean toward the learned argument, believing that given the right access to right training and opportunities, the vast majority of people can master a skill - Malcolm Gladwell, Outliers demonstrates some pretty convincing arguments for this and is a great read.
However, I do see what LP is saying, and I believe there simply has to be some form of natural ability involved.
Absolutely incorrect though that LP had plateaud in cricket at 16 - by simply questioning 'natural ability' at that age you were ironically limiting your potential through mindset. I'm not saying that had you continued the same level of practice for another 5 years you would have had a professional career, but you certainly would have 'improved' - experience through hours of correct practice greatly improves decision making processes as well as subconscious memory, which at that age would have undoubtedly made you better at cricket. By then taking up hockey later in life, when we all have to grow up and find a real job, you were never going to have the sheer weight of hours of practice to allow you to reach your potential before your body places physical limitation that time cannot resist!
With both sports, you may have plateaud in the framework of your life circumstances at that time (possibly not going to get offered a contract, therefore not having access to further/better coaching etc, and then pursuing a new sport at the same time as a career and at and age where learning is proven to be more difficult), but take those circumstances/restrcitions away and you would definitely have improved, should you have the time and correct coaching.
However, I do see what LP is saying, and I believe there simply has to be some form of natural ability involved.
Absolutely incorrect though that LP had plateaud in cricket at 16 - by simply questioning 'natural ability' at that age you were ironically limiting your potential through mindset. I'm not saying that had you continued the same level of practice for another 5 years you would have had a professional career, but you certainly would have 'improved' - experience through hours of correct practice greatly improves decision making processes as well as subconscious memory, which at that age would have undoubtedly made you better at cricket. By then taking up hockey later in life, when we all have to grow up and find a real job, you were never going to have the sheer weight of hours of practice to allow you to reach your potential before your body places physical limitation that time cannot resist!
With both sports, you may have plateaud in the framework of your life circumstances at that time (possibly not going to get offered a contract, therefore not having access to further/better coaching etc, and then pursuing a new sport at the same time as a career and at and age where learning is proven to be more difficult), but take those circumstances/restrcitions away and you would definitely have improved, should you have the time and correct coaching.
BoadieBroadus
Q-School Graduate
i am a firm believer in natural ability, though obviously levels of natural ability vary hugely, it is not simply a black and white case of no natural ability or all of it.
I played hockey when i was younger with a boy who went on to play internationally, even though we were young and had certainly never put in anywhere near 10,000 hours or whatever it takes, it was clear this one individual was absolutely light years ahead of the rest in what he could do.
could someone with slightly less talent have really worked at their game and achieved the same? possibly. could he have got complacent and blow his talent and achieved less? sure. but would one of the kids who turned up week after week and still couldn't trap or hit a ball after 18 months ever have been as good as he was? not in a million years.
applying it to golf, I believe that everyone has a degree of natural ability to apply the sweet spot of a golf club to a ball at speed, but i'd reckon (unscientifically) that all tour pros started in the top 3 percentile of that ability. someone in the bottom 40% might never be able to get better than a 15 handicap.
mediocre minority sport practitioners can write all the books they want, but never will i believe that innate ability isn't the main driver in someone's capacity to excel.
I played hockey when i was younger with a boy who went on to play internationally, even though we were young and had certainly never put in anywhere near 10,000 hours or whatever it takes, it was clear this one individual was absolutely light years ahead of the rest in what he could do.
could someone with slightly less talent have really worked at their game and achieved the same? possibly. could he have got complacent and blow his talent and achieved less? sure. but would one of the kids who turned up week after week and still couldn't trap or hit a ball after 18 months ever have been as good as he was? not in a million years.
applying it to golf, I believe that everyone has a degree of natural ability to apply the sweet spot of a golf club to a ball at speed, but i'd reckon (unscientifically) that all tour pros started in the top 3 percentile of that ability. someone in the bottom 40% might never be able to get better than a 15 handicap.
mediocre minority sport practitioners can write all the books they want, but never will i believe that innate ability isn't the main driver in someone's capacity to excel.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Despite what I've written in earlier posts I do think many sports can claim a link to a 'natural ability'
I see natural abilities as something we've always done, these would be running, jumping, climbing, throwing, catching and swimming
As I say many sports can link to one of these abilities but I can't say golf is one of them
I see natural abilities as something we've always done, these would be running, jumping, climbing, throwing, catching and swimming
As I say many sports can link to one of these abilities but I can't say golf is one of them
MadAdey
Money List Winner
Well I'm firmly in the 'natural ability' side of things. If we are to believe that these abilities can be taught then can someone please answer these questions.
You take a child and the moment he can stand, put a golf club in his hand and get him the best coaching. If I am to believe that there is no such thing as natural ability, then this child will become a top tour golfer. But is there not hundreds of these parents out there that do this already, yet their child still never makes it.
The Greg Norman situation had been mentioned several times. How do you get someone that one day decides to swing a golf club, then very soon is a tour pro. No previous coaching and never played other sports similar to golf at a high level. So is this natural ability, or something he has been taught.
You take a child and the moment he can stand, put a golf club in his hand and get him the best coaching. If I am to believe that there is no such thing as natural ability, then this child will become a top tour golfer. But is there not hundreds of these parents out there that do this already, yet their child still never makes it.
The Greg Norman situation had been mentioned several times. How do you get someone that one day decides to swing a golf club, then very soon is a tour pro. No previous coaching and never played other sports similar to golf at a high level. So is this natural ability, or something he has been taught.
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Faldo was pretty quick too.
Didn't pick a golf club up until he was 14. Saw Jack Nicklaus playing in the Masters and thought "I'll have some of that".
Ross61
Challenge Tour Pro
To attempt to take learning out of the equation as much as I can I'm going to talk about dogs. I have 2 border collies both born on farms but different farms. Both dogs will naturally herd up other dogs and also humans, in fact they work as a pair. I've never seen a poodle or a jack Russell or most other breads do the same. They both were only 8 weeks old when we got them and so had no chance of being taught by older dogs on the farms. If there is no natural ability how did they "learn" the skills?
I think Le tissier would admit he didn't try as hard as others. You hear stories of Beckham staying after training and hitting an extra 100 free kicks and crosses le tissier didn't do any of that.
