My Study of OBFL versus NBFL

[User20205]

Well, that's my story and I guess I am sticking with it

thanks for the insight Brian :thup:

I guess it's the way you're put together, I can hit a fade on demand, and a draw that sometimes turns into a hook. I know what they feel like.

Faced with the tree 6 foot away scenario, I'd probably take my medicine, or if I was really brave just blast through it.

I'm not exactly analytical in mindset so most of it is lost on me! I do suspect in my simple way that this could lead to paralysis by analysis

 

[Patrick57]

I wanted to learn how to shape golfballs so that I could place the ball in the best positions in doglegs, pull the ball around objects, hit soft fades into greens, draw balls to give maximum run out etc. It is a very important part of playing good golf IMO.

I asked my coach at the time to teach me and he explained the Old Ball Flight Laws method to do it. I practiced this and tried using it but all it did was put me in a lot of trouble on the course. I then took another lesson with a different Pro who explained it exactly the same way.

I decided to find out more as there must have been a better way, or I was a bit stupid and not doing what I was told (I knew that wasn't the case though) I read a number of publications and the first that really helped me was the book 'The search for the perfect golf swing' by Cochran and Stobbs, this book said something different. I tried out their theory and it worked !! GREAT!! I then researched quite a lot on the theory of golf ball ballistics (I am an Engineer after all) and learned that many things I had been taught were not true. There is a wealth of information on the subject these days and especially on the internet.

As Bob has said before, the GB PGA has taught the NBFL for some time now but the US PGA still teach the OBFL, this is why there are still so many getting it wrong.

Well, that's my story and I guess I am sticking with it

Which directives did the pros give you that were wrong?

e.g. path 3° in to out, face closed 1° to path, ball starts right of target and curves back towards the target.

What's wrong with these simple old instructions?

 

[Patrick57]

OK.

The old laws say that the clubface decides the direction the ball will end on and the swingpath decides the direction the ball takes off on.

I work with the OBFL diagram and I can't find the above sentence on this chart. Please state what is wrong with the actual chart.

 

[Region3]

Which directives did the pros give you that were wrong?

e.g. path 3° in to out, face closed 1° to path, ball starts right of target and curves back towards the target.

What's wrong with these simple old instructions?

Are they the old ones? Really?

I thought the old ones would say path 3° in to out, face closed 3°​ to path. No?

 

[SocketRocket]

Which directives did the pros give you that were wrong?

e.g. path 3° in to out, face closed 1° to path, ball starts right of target and curves back towards the target.

What's wrong with these simple old instructions?

I was taught to aim the clubface where the ball needed to finish and swing down the line the ball should start.

Are you saying this is correct?

 

[SocketRocket]

thanks for the insight Brian :thup:

I guess it's the way you're put together, I can hit a fade on demand, and a draw that sometimes turns into a hook. I know what they feel like.

Faced with the tree 6 foot away scenario, I'd probably take my medicine, or if I was really brave just blast through it.

I'm not exactly analytical in mindset so most of it is lost on me! I do suspect in my simple way that this could lead to paralysis by analysis

No one is going to bend a ball around a tree 6 foot away. 60 yards away may give you a chance.

 

[SocketRocket]

Are they the old ones? Really?

I thought the old ones would say path 3° in to out, face closed 3°​ to path. No?

I agree. The old ones would say clubface at target and swingpath 3 deg closed.

Result: Ball would end up right of target.

 

[SocketRocket]

Patrick:

Here is a Video I posted previously, it's from Justin Rose and he is explaining how to hit a Draw and Fade. he is using the OBFL method, I guess from his USA learning.

Do you agree with his explanation of how to make the shots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0wPnLYNy4

 

[Patrick57]

This may get lost in all the other posts, but I will give my opinion on your diagrams, and then ask a question of you.

The diagrams look almost identical. I don't agree with the left hand one showing your depiction of the NBFL.
Just taking one of the lines as an example, the red dashed one. Swing path 5° out-to-in with the face 8° open to the path.

NBFL says the initial direction is affected most (around 85%) by face angle.
Difference between path and face is 8°.
85% of 8° is 6.8°.
If the path is only 5° out-to-in, why does your starting line point left of straight?

Yes I get your point. But when I start this red line 1.8% right of the target the flight is very severe and the shot is extremely weak with a huge banana slice. I've also tried to hit this shot and just can't achieve it without opening the face at ridiculous levels. I know what I feel and what I actually do is different but starting a ball right of target on this path is a powder puff shot. perhaps my feeling is that the face ius open 25° when it is actually 8° open.

Now my question.
If I want to fade a ball into a right-side pin, what do the OBFL say I should do, and what would really happen if I did that assuming NBFL are correct.

I'm not worried about giving specific angles/distances etc. Descriptions of left/right of target/path/face will be fine.

The OBFL suggest using either a push slice or straight slice. In a nutshell they suggest aiming at the left side of the green with the clubface aiming right of this path and the ball will curve to the right.

The NBFL would confuse this advice because they would refer clubface to target rather than to path...

Aim to the left side of green with the club closed to the target but not more closed than the parameters of path.

 

[Patrick57]

Patrick, the PGA says the clubface dictates 85% the direction the ball starts and the swing path imparts the sidespin.
Would you like to comment on that please?

I am not going to argue with the physics. I am of the opinion that our bodies have realised subconsciously that whenever the face is open or closed to a greater degree than path left or right of target, things just get silly.

That's why I use simple descriptions like path -3 to +3 and face conditions -3 to +3. I am also not referring to these parameters in degrees but -1 is a little left, -3 a lot left and -2 somewhere in between. The same with clubface, -1 a little closed etc.

 

[Patrick57]

Are they the old ones? Really?

I thought the old ones would say path 3° in to out, face closed 3°​ to path. No?

The OBFL don't mention degrees.

 

[Patrick57]

I was taught to aim the clubface where the ball needed to finish and swing down the line the ball should start.

Are you saying this is correct?

Once again I can't find this sentence on the OBFL charts.

 

[JustOne]

Yes I get your point. But when I start this red line 1.8% right of the target the flight is very severe and the shot is extremely weak with a huge banana slice.

:rofl: That's quite funny. Do you teach Snelly?

 

[Patrick57]

Patrick:

Here is a Video I posted previously, it's from Justin Rose and he is explaining how to hit a Draw and Fade. he is using the OBFL method, I guess from his USA learning.

Do you agree with his explanation of how to make the shots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0wPnLYNy4

Of course not! If you read my OP, I work with the directives of the Old diagram and many people have put words in that just aren't there in the diagrams. Please look at the descriptions of each flight and you'll see that Rose is adding his feel for these instructions.

 

[Patrick57]

:rofl: That's quite funny. Do you teach Snelly?

I think if Snelly can actually hit this shot he deserves a medal. I rarely see a banana slice that starts right of target. The guys that perform this particular shot always start the ball left of target.

 

[JustOne]

I rarely see a banana slice that starts right of target. The guys that perform this particular shot always start the ball left of target.

Unless they follow YOUR chart :thup:

 

[Patrick57]

Unless they follow YOUR chart :thup:

At least using my chart they can try to perform the shot within 15 seconds of the command. They would need a calculator for the directives issued from a NBFL/Trackman/D-Plane geek and would be disqualified for slow play or experience explosions in the head.

 

[SocketRocket]

At least using my chart they can try to perform the shot within 15 seconds of the command. They would need a calculator for the directives issued from a NBFL/Trackman/D-Plane geek and would be disqualified for slow play or experience explosions in the head.

Your chart is wrong. If you can make a reasoned argument against 'D' Plane then I will listen to you and consider your view. If you keep plugging back to that onerous chart that is wrong then I see no reason to continue.

You are convinced that you are correct and the NBFL are not. Keep on teaching people to hit into the trees if you can get away with it.

 

[JustOne]

Why would they use your method instead of just knowing the correct ballflight laws and using them? I don't get why they would choose a method like yours that is wrong... even your chart is wrong... unless you don't tell them that yours is wrong of course

If your clubface is to the right of the target that ball is going to start to the right of the target (even if it's only by one inch)... that's undisputed.... apart from BY YOU.... and your chart.

 

[Snelly]

Now, I do understand that you have previously stated that you prefer to learn by hitting golf balls and seeing what happens but I think again you must accept that you are someone who has above average ability to play golf (The average handicap is around 23, why do you think that is?) MOST people don't have natural coordination and hand eye skill so will get very frustrated and maybe give up on the game if they dont improve. Teaching these people a shortcut to obtain the skills is a good way of keeping their interest and improving their enjoyment of the game.

That's my take on it, I hope you can see my point. If you cant then have a nice weekend anyway.

Yes I see your point but I would guess that where we differ radically is in the realms of the practical rather than theoretical. What I mean by that is that I don't think understanding the physics behind what causes the ball to do something helps you to score better. I accept that it may, if you have an enquiring, logical, scientific mind, help you hit the ball better but that is not the same thing and nor does hitting better logically equate to scoring better.

Average handicaps are high in my opinion because golfers haven't played enough golf to become adept. We learn by doing.

And I could go on but will just say that we can agree to disagree on whether understanding ball flight laws is a short cut to improvement. I am certain it isn't but I can only truly comment about me I guess. If it works for you (as I said in my previous post) then good luck to you and I wish you all the best.

And yes, have a good weekend yourself.