Matchplay issue

TerryDan

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A 4ball matchplay playing the 5th hole par 3. Both pairs are on the green, pair a ask opponents (pair b) to move the ball marker as it is in their putting line. This is done. The hole is halved . While playing the 7th hole pair A realise they don't remember the opponents replacing the ball marker to the correct position on the 5th hole, they ask pair B who say they can't remeber but think they did. Pair A think the marker was not replaced and think they should win that hole.
What happens ? Also, if pair B agree they didn't replace the marker, is it a case that once they tee off on the next hole it is too late to change the score on the 5th?
 

2blue

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A 4ball matchplay playing the 5th hole par 3. Both pairs are on the green, pair a ask opponents (pair b) to move the ball marker as it is in their putting line. This is done. The hole is halved . While playing the 7th hole pair A realise they don't remember the opponents replacing the ball marker to the correct position on the 5th hole, they ask pair B who say they can't remeber but think they did. Pair A think the marker was not replaced and think they should win that hole.
What happens ? Also, if pair B agree they didn't replace the marker, is it a case that once they tee off on the next hole it is too late to change the score on the 5th?
Tis this I believe
 

nickjdavis

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The "claim" should have been made before teeing off on the next hole.

Given that they are now playing the 7th hole and the incident occurred on the 5th, Pair A do not have a claim.
 

TerryDan

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Rules: 20.1b(2) and (3)
I have done a further bit of research and there could be a situation whereby a "new fact" emerges later and a claim can be made at that time. So, in this case if pair B admit they didn't replace the marker & should have applied a penalty, the this is a new fact.
 

Steven Rules

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A few points to consider here, acknowledging that I will stop short of giving an actual ruling.

First, the term "claim" is not used anywhere in the Rules. Not even in inverted commas. You don't "claim" a hole. You either win, lose or tie it.

The player who (possibly) failed to replace the ball marker and then played from the wrong place lost the hole at that moment. No "claim" necessary. A question that arises in my mind here, though, is what was the status of the player’s four-ball partner's ball? In this instance, the player’s penalty has no effect on the partner's score.

When a player incurs a penalty, 3.2d(2) places the onus on the player to tell the opponent about the penalty. "I have just played from a wrong place. I lost the hole." This requirement applies even if the player does not know about the penalty (because players are expected to recognize when they have breached a Rule).

From the OP, it is inconclusive whether the ball marker was actually replaced correctly or not. "He said. She said." Normally a request for a ruling must be made before any player makes a stroke to begin the next hole. But because this involved failure to disclose a penalty, a ruling may be availble later depending on whether or not we consider the opponent was aware of the facts at the time of the incident. (20.1b(2)). If a late ruling is permissible then the Exception to 3.2d(3) also permits the match score to be corrected later if it is based on failure to tell an opponent about a penalty.

I'm very happy for others (and you know who you are) to build on, or rebuff, these points.
 

TerryDan

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Steven, thanks for the post. The 4ball partners (A1 & B1) both had scored 4. A2 holed out for a 3, B2 holed out for a 3. B2 had moved his marker to allow A2 to putt. It is unclear if he replaced it. Pair B didn't apply a penalty as they think the had a 3. It was only a few holes later when the opponents asked them if the recalled whether the marker was replaced. It is as you say, he said, she said. Inconclusive.
But what if, when on the 7th hole pair B said, "oh yes B2 played from the wrong spot on the 5th, we only just remembered now" , can the scores for 5th hole be changed?
 

Steven Rules

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But what if, when on the 7th hole pair B said, "oh yes B2 played from the wrong spot on the 5th, we only just remembered now" , can the scores for 5th hole be changed?
Yes. 3.2d(2) and the Exception to 3.2d(3) tell me that in this specific scenario, where side B initially failed to tell side A about a penalty that B2 incurred but B subsequently did reveal it, and this affects side A's understanding of the result of the hole, then side B loses the hole and the match score must be corrected.

But on the actual facts of this situation, where the facts are disputed and there is no other evidence available, it is highly likely that a Committee or Referee would rule that the original understanding of the hole result would stand.....and that is if they even permitted a late request for a ruling to be made at all.
 

rulefan

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Does this not apply? Did the opponents not observe the action?

3.2d(3) Exception – No Penalty When Opponent Knew of Player’s Penalty: If the opponent knew that the player had a penalty, such as when seeing the player obviously take penalty relief, the player gets no penalty for failing to tell the opponent about it.
 
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Steven Rules

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Obviously they didn't realise the opponent had incurred a loss of hole penalty at the time because.....here we are trying to unravel the aftermath.

It gets really messy when players don't have awareness at the time and then expect Committees and referees to come along and pick up the pieces several holes later.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Seems to be too much supposition and assertion around the OP scenario for there to be a rule to cause the result of a hole to be changed some holes later. KOVC applies to a number of rule scenarios…there is nothing KOVC about this event plus too much water under the bridge since it may or may not have happened.

Of course the rules may have a different opinion.
 

salfordlad

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A few points to consider here, acknowledging that I will stop short of giving an actual ruling.

First, the term "claim" is not used anywhere in the Rules. Not even in inverted commas. You don't "claim" a hole. You either win, lose or tie it.

The player who (possibly) failed to replace the ball marker and then played from the wrong place lost the hole at that moment. No "claim" necessary. A question that arises in my mind here, though, is what was the status of the player’s four-ball partner's ball? In this instance, the player’s penalty has no effect on the partner's score.

When a player incurs a penalty, 3.2d(2) places the onus on the player to tell the opponent about the penalty. "I have just played from a wrong place. I lost the hole." This requirement applies even if the player does not know about the penalty (because players are expected to recognize when they have breached a Rule).

From the OP, it is inconclusive whether the ball marker was actually replaced correctly or not. "He said. She said." Normally a request for a ruling must be made before any player makes a stroke to begin the next hole. But because this involved failure to disclose a penalty, a ruling may be availble later depending on whether or not we consider the opponent was aware of the facts at the time of the incident. (20.1b(2)). If a late ruling is permissible then the Exception to 3.2d(3) also permits the match score to be corrected later if it is based on failure to tell an opponent about a penalty.

I'm very happy for others (and you know who you are) to build on, or rebuff, these points.
I look at it more simply than this. If Pair A witnessed the action of Pair B finishing the hole (they were all on the green and there is no information that they didn't) then there is no timely ruling request and Pair A failed to protect their rights if there was any breach. And a subsequent ruling request for the earlier hole will not be given as not all the necessary three conditions in 20.1b(2) are met.
 

rulie

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A bit of a spanner or maybe a red herring - had the sides agreed to a match score after the 5th or 6th hole?
 
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