Match play against women

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Jamesbrown

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Unsure of this one and the match is tomorrow.

Due to play a match tomorrow. Opponent is a lady, both off 10.

What happens when we come across for me a par 4 and her a par 5?
 
You play off one card normally the whites and then the lady normally gets the adjusted shots if there is a difference in the SSS
 
James,

Par has no signifiance in match play. All that matters is how many strokes are given and received and where according to the stroke index they are allocated. If there is a difference between the SSS of the ladies' course and the SSS of the men's, you add the difference between the higher and the lower SSS to the handicap of the person playing the course with the higher SSS.

For example
Lady's red course SSS = 72
Gent's white course SSS = 70

The red course SSS is higher by 2 strokes and so the lady has 2 strokes added to her playing handicap. If that were the case with your match, your opponent's handicap for the match will be 12 and yours 10, resulting in her getting 2 strokes from you. These strokes could quite possibly be allocated at a hole where the par of the red and white courses differ. That's immaterial.
 
I find it quite funny when playing against men, on my course the are 3 par 4s that are par 5 for ladies, I get no comment when playing these, however there is also a par 4 that is a par 3 for us the men usually moan like mad when we play that.
 
You also need to agree which stroke index you are playing to, normally I believe you ought to play off the mens, but in the Titleist matchplay you take your shots off the SI of the player getting the shots
 
There is no set rule for which SI to use this is the extract from the guidelines

Which Stroke Index should we use?
There is often a debate about which Stroke Index (SI) should be used. For Stroke play it is recommended that each player uses the SI appropriate to them. For match play it is recommended that SI appropriate to either the Men's or Ladies' course is used for both sets of players. This should have minimal effect for two reasons:
1. Players rarely play their best (or worst) golf on the holes where they get a shot
2. When players don't get a shot where they should it means they do get a shot where they shouldn't.


 
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I played a few times with a co worker who played to scratch (he beat Paul Azinger in High School) and he was against different tees for different people. He said the course was designed from the longest tee and all people (seniors, women, high handicaps) should play from there. That way there was never a question about how to HC a match between players in different groups. I tried that with him a couple of times and it was a struggle on some holes, but it turned out to be very satisfying knowing only our skill (and my HC) separated us, not favorable tee placements. (One hole with a long tee shot over water forced me to play it down the side taking two shots to equal his one, but my concentration was sharpened and I made up one of the strokes later on, and we halved the hole [net])
 
Perhaps it is a difference between us, but the handicap adjustment made in the CONGU jurisdiction for mixed tee competitions has nothing to do with "favourable tee placements." Indeed if you look at the example I gave above (from my own course), the ladies handicaps are adjusted upwards by 2 strokes although playing from more forward tees (2 of which are significantly "more favourable"). It''s entirely based on the relative Standard Scratch Scores.

In any event, I don't understand the reasoning behind your friend's conclusion. :confused:
 
Colin L said:
In any event, I don't understand the reasoning behind your friend's conclusion. :confused:
Click to expand...

It was basically that the two players weren't playing the same course or the course that the architect made. The only mechanism for leveling the game should be my handicap, not HC plus a tee closer to the hole. That's what he wanted, he obviously didn't get it. :)
 
atticusfinch said:
It was basically that the two players weren't playing the same course or the course that the architect made. The only mechanism for leveling the game should be my handicap, not HC plus a tee closer to the hole. That's what he wanted, he obviously didn't get it. :)
Click to expand...

I get this. A different tee, perhaps 40yds different, could give a different angle, different set of issues in front of you. Trees could come into play, shape of hole changes etc. I've played plenty of courses where a big difference in tees is not just about distance but changes the difficulty of the hole entirely.

If matchplay is to work properly then play the same tee but get more shots. Different tees = different course.

I know 95%, or more, won't agree but that's fine. We are allowed different opinions.
 
Re OP

For a man to play a woman the tees would have to be rated for both. And there would be strokes involved. And there would still be a different set of issues.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
I get this. A different tee, perhaps 40yds different, could give a different angle, different set of issues in front of you. Trees could come into play, shape of hole changes etc. I've played plenty of courses where a big difference in tees is not just about distance but changes the difficulty of the hole entirely.

If matchplay is to work properly then play the same tee but get more shots. Different tees = different course.

I know 95%, or more, won't agree but that's fine. We are allowed different opinions.
Click to expand...

There's no question but that different tees mean different courses. The point of any handicap adjustment needed is precisely because of that. If you had the men and the women playing from, say, the white tees, how would you propose calculating how many "more shots", and who is to receive them? It's highly unlikely that the white course has been rated for women and just as unlikely if they play from the red tees that the red course has been rated for men. Here's the CONGU explanation:

Recently it was advocated that, when running mixed competitions the ladies should play from the Men's Tees. This would be totally unfair as, unless a Ladies' SSS has been calculated for the Men's course (and there are few, if any, where this has been done), it would be impossible to make a fair and reasonable assessment of the adjustment that should be applied. Some will be surprised at the size of adjustment that would be necessary. If the competition were played solely off the Men's Tees, with a fairly typical course length of 6,100 yards the typical men's SSS would be 69/70 and the typical ladies' SSS would be 74/75.

The adjustment here would be to increase the ladies' handicaps by 4 to 6. This may seem a lot but is the only way that the competition would have any semblance of being equal to all. Even then, playing a course that is probably 500 yards longer than that on which their handicap has been obtained will, for a good number of rounds anyway, still leave them at a disadvantage.
 
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Personally feel it would be better for men & woman to play the same course in matchplay if they are playing the same competition.

Handicaps allow for players of differing abilities to be competitive against each other, so there must be a formula or adjustment that a course can decide on to enable this to happen.

It would only take a handful of competitions off different tees to get some information to actually make a calculation without guessing.

Play a couple of ladies medals off yellow tees and a couple of men's medals off red tees. From that info, a course could decide that ladies get an extra % of their handicap to play off longer tees, or vice versa.
 
Grant85 said:
Personally feel it would be better for men & woman to play the same course in matchplay if they are playing the same competition.

Handicaps allow for players of differing abilities to be competitive against each other, so there must be a formula or adjustment that a course can decide on to enable this to happen.

It would only take a handful of competitions off different tees to get some information to actually make a calculation without guessing.

Play a couple of ladies medals off yellow tees and a couple of men's medals off red tees. From that info, a course could decide that ladies get an extra % of their handicap to play off longer tees, or vice versa.
Click to expand...
There is already well defined process/formula for this in the CONGU Manual
 
Grant85 said:
Personally feel it would be better for men & woman to play the same course in matchplay if they are playing the same competition.

Handicaps allow for players of differing abilities to be competitive against each other, so there must be a formula or adjustment that a course can decide on to enable this to happen.

It would only take a handful of competitions off different tees to get some information to actually make a calculation without guessing.

Play a couple of ladies medals off yellow tees and a couple of men's medals off red tees. From that info, a course could decide that ladies get an extra % of their handicap to play off longer tees, or vice versa.
Click to expand...

You can only play a matchplay against a lady of the same tee if that tee is rated for both ladies and men

If it’s a handicap knockout then the tees used are the ones where that person gains and maintains their handicap and then adjustments made between the two if there is any difference on the SSS

The formulas are already out there with the adjustments required and it will be easier when all clubs have all tees rated. This is all handicap manipulation to make it as fair match as possible
 
rulefan said:
There is already well defined process/formula for this in the CONGU Manual
Click to expand...

Liverpoolphil said:
You can only play a matchplay against a lady of the same tee if that tee is rated for both ladies and men

If it’s a handicap knockout then the tees used are the ones where that person gains and maintains their handicap and then adjustments made between the two if there is any difference on the SSS

The formulas are already out there with the adjustments required and it will be easier when all clubs have all tees rated. This is all handicap manipulation to make it as fair match as possible
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I guess it comes down to personal preference of that club or competition. And seems likely a lot of clubs have simply not rated their tees for the alternate gender.

I have never played a lady in a match, but the anecdotes I've heard have been where it has been different tees with full handicaps.
 
Old Skier said:
Clubs do not rate their tees.

We asked the county team to rate all our tees for both men and women, unfortunately they refused.
Click to expand...

Surely you would need some competitions and some information to rate them, so the club would have to at least run competitions from different tees before anyone could rate them?

I was under the impression that the Stroke Indexes were once upon a time based on actual golf played on the course to determine the hardest and easiest holes. Surely the same for SSS and for slope rating, when this comes to more prominence.
 
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