Marking the grass nap to aid alignment

[tobybarker]

no I didnt...I trailed it through the grass! could just as easily have used my footsteps......

As you can gather by now this isnt a serious issue - I was just pondering the issue as I had nowt better to do. I still have seen no evidence to suggest its illegal, though

 

[Oddsocks]

Hmmmmm. ?

Without it sounding an attack or a form of trolling (because it isn’t) it seems you own thought has already told you it’s not right, it looks like you are just looking for justification that ot is ok?

 

[hairball_89]

I didn't lay down anything... I just used my club to create a temporary on the grass nap (or dew, at it was a dewy morning)

I refer you back to my earlier post.

you made a line. And then used the line you made. That's illegal.

Seriously. Come on. You knew you were in the wrong when you asked this.

 

[rulefan]

I still wonder why they changed the wording. I'm sure it is illegal but 'making a mark' is hardly a synonym (or whatever a phrase is as opposed to a word) for 'laying down'.

 

[salfordlad]

There is an official answer that affirms the advice provided above. Physically creating a line or marking specific spots to aid alignment, be it in dew, snow, frost, grass nap or whatever, gets the general penalty. It is treated equivalently to setting down an object (breach of 10.2b(3)) courtesy of rule 20.3. This is one of the isolated examples I am aware of where an RB has cited 20.3 as part of their answer. Which means it will be interesting to see if 10.2b(3) gets a 2023 makeover.

 

[Colin L]

no I didnt...I trailed it through the grass! could just as easily have used my footsteps......
As you can gather by now this isnt a serious issue - I was just pondering the issue as I had nowt better to do. I still have seen no evidence to suggest its illegal, though

It would be a serious issue if someone did this in a competition and it's an intriguing question. There should be no doubt that you are not allowed to do what you did but you are challenging us to justify that from the rules as written. Here's 10.2b(3) again to remind us of the exact wording:

(3) No Setting Down Object to Help in Taking Stance. A player must not take a stance for the stroke using any object that was set down by or for the player to help in lining up his or her feet or body, such as a club set down on the ground to show the line of play.
If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away from the stance and removing the object.

Firstly, setting down a club on the ground to show the line of play is just an example of a prohibited action. It does not preclude other actions like putting a clubhead down and dragging it through the grass to leave a visible line. To be "illegal", other actions would have to fall within whatever is meant by the general statement, must not take a stance for the stroke using any object that was set down by or for the player to help in lining up his or her feet or body.

There is no question but that the action was for the purpose of helping you line up your feet or body. That leaves the phrase using any object that was set down and I for one would be confident that you did indeed set down an object (your club). You'd didn't set it down in the sense of the example - laying it on the ground along the line of play - but you could not have made your mark through the grass without purposely putting your clubhead down and dragging or pushing it through the grass. That action, as far as I'm concerned, is setting an object down.

If you want to speculate on an alternative (not too seriously mind you), how about the prohibited action in 4.3a?

• Using equipment (including a club or a ball) in an abnormal way in making a stroke. “Abnormal way” means a way that is fundamentally different than its intended use and is not normally recognized as part of playing the game.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I didn't lay down anything... I just used my club to create a temporary on the grass nap (or dew, at it was a dewy morning)

Toby, mate
The answer is no, just accept it and get on with your life ?

 

[Colin L]

There is an official answer that affirms the advice provided above. Physically creating a line or marking specific spots to aid alignment, be it in dew, snow, frost, grass nap or whatever, gets the general penalty. It is treated equivalently to setting down an object (breach of 10.2b(3)) courtesy of rule 20.3. This is one of the isolated examples I am aware of where an RB has cited 20.3 as part of their answer. Which means it will be interesting to see if 10.2b(3) gets a 2023 makeover.

Thanks for that. Knowing that was the case but being unable to find it in the rules was puzzling and frustrating. Is this another official answer we need to be following the USGA Facebook page to know about or have I missed it elsewhere? (if you detect a degree of irritation in that, you'd be right.)

 

[tobybarker]

At last, somenidy finds a ruling. Thank you. Very informative. I thought it was an interesting question. Some of you need to chill out and not be so aggressive.

 

[bobmac]

I was going to suggest it's against the rules but not illegal ie not against the law.
If it's against the rules, you get penalised, if it's against the law, you get jail.
It turns out I was wrong, illegal can mean not following the rules of a game.
It still sounds wrong to me

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Yes I thought so but I could find no mention in the rules (which mention alignment sticks, clubs etc laid on the ground)

Of course not, because it's so ridiculous. People complain the rules are too in depth, and then you get this, where clearly it falls foul of using an alignment aid for your stroke but because it's not specifically mentioned you think it'd be ok. god's sakes

 

[Colin L]

At last, somenidy finds a ruling. Thank you. Very informative. I thought it was an interesting question. Some of you need to chill out and not be so aggressive.

You were explicitly pointed to the rule in post #4 and again in post #13 and it was referred to as the applicable rule in a number of other posts as well.

 

[rulefan]

There is an official answer that affirms the advice provided above. Physically creating a line or marking specific spots to aid alignment, be it in dew, snow, frost, grass nap or whatever, gets the general penalty. It is treated equivalently to setting down an object (breach of 10.2b(3)) courtesy of rule 20.3. This is one of the isolated examples I am aware of where an RB has cited 20.3 as part of their answer. Which means it will be interesting to see if 10.2b(3) gets a 2023 makeover.

Where was this published? I still find it odd that 'making a mark' is no longer mentioned.

 

[jim8flog]

no I didnt...I trailed it through the grass! could just as easily have used my footsteps......

As you can gather by now this isnt a serious issue - I was just pondering the issue as I had nowt better to do. I still have seen no evidence to suggest its illegal, though

I would refer you to my # 3 and #4 posts

Where there is no explicit wording in a rule (such as your circumstance) it is also considered to be a rule when the action closely resembles the written circumstance ie when you are doing something which the rule. is trying to prevent. Just imagine how thick the rule book would be if they had to describe every single action that breaks a specific rule.

 

[Colin L]

Where was this published? I still find it odd that 'making a mark' is no longer mentioned.

I haven't got the roadmap to hand to check that and have no wish to trawl through Facebook. No doubt our Lancastrian lad will enlighten.

 

[Leftitshort]

I think it’s nonsense. You should be allowed to build a big neon arrow to show the direction of play. Common sense must be applied. Not being able to draw an arrow or make a sign is more evidence that golf is out of touch. @Orikoru will be along soon to back me up ?

 

[salfordlad]

I haven't got the roadmap to hand to check that and have no wish to trawl through Facebook. No doubt our Lancastrian lad will enlighten.

I originally sent the question in and got a written response in Jan 2020 - I've now reviewed and my memory of the rule reference was slightly flawed - reference is 10.2b(2) rather than 10.2b(3). I also had a vague recollection that the issue got a run sometime much later on the USGA FB page and accepted Colin's challenge and went and found it. It has colour and movement, so for your viewing pleasure, here 'tis...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4125652780841605

And the USGA answer is:

United States Golf Association - USGA

Hi, Bob
Lots of good replies here, many of which get to the same answer ...
We’ll need to know (1) if a mark was left in the dew and (2) why this was done.
- If she is just touching the green without intending to place a mark in the dew, this is

- if she is touching the green to place a mark in the dew, this would be a breach of Rule 10.2b(2) if that mark was placed to show the line of play.
We get to this answer through Rule 20.3, noting that Rule 10.2b(2) prohibits an object from being set down anywhere to show the line of play before a stroke from the putting green.
So, while what she is doing is not specifically prohibitted, she has clearly failed to follow the purpose of that prohibition.

 

[rulefan]

So, while what she is doing is not specifically prohibitted, she has clearly failed to follow the purpose of that prohibition.

Many thanks for that.

But I don't think it is clear that marking and setting down are the same thing. Perhaps my understanding of English is faulty.

Incidentally, this example is about line of play but isn't the OP is about stance?

 

[salfordlad]

Many thanks for that.

But I don't think it is clear that marking and setting down are the same thing. Perhaps my understanding of English is faulty.

Incidentally, this example is about line of play but isn't the OP is about stance?

I agree it is not clear that marking and setting down are the same thing. Hence my original question about marking a mark, asking is that to be treated equivalent to pointing out a line or setting down an object? The replay affirmed a 10.2 breach via 20.3 despite the difference in the wording. My conclusion - RBs were acknowledging that this change from pre 2019 'making a mark' to post 2019 'setting down an object' had opened up this undesirable and unintended crack.
I also agree that if the intervention is to point out a line it is 10.2b(2) involved, if it is about aiding stance then 10.2b(3) is involved. Either way, there is a general penalty for making a mark via 20.3.

 

[tobybarker]

Of course not, because it's so ridiculous. People complain the rules are too in depth, and then you get this, where clearly it falls foul of using an alignment aid for your stroke but because it's not specifically mentioned you think it'd be ok. god's sakes

God's sake sonny Jim, calm down. I said no such thing. It was a question, one which, it seems, has generated an interesting thread. Bu*ger off of it annoys you