Lost ball or birdie ?

[Bdill93]

Yeah, no problem. Again, you are not declaring the ball lost by doing so. You are just putting another ball in play, regardless of where the original went (i.e. a player can take stroke and distance at any time). The original is no longer in play.

So really this is a rule that can be "abused" but in your own favor I suppose?

I only ask because a guy at our club recently did exactly this.

Just to be clear - if we take the same scenario but the guy says "oooh thats probably lost, ill play a provvy" then sticks the provvy straight onto the green - does he HAVE to search for the original ball for 3 minutes? Or can he walk in the general direction of the 1st ball, declare lost and then continue with the provvy?

 

[Swango1980]

So really this is a rule that can be "abused" but in your own favor I suppose?

I only ask because a guy at our club recently did exactly this.

Just to be clear - if we take the same scenario but the guy says "oooh thats probably lost, ill play a provvy" then sticks the provvy straight onto the green - does he HAVE to search for the original ball for 3 minutes? Or can he walk in the general direction of the 1st ball, declare lost and then continue with the provvy?

It can't really be abused, it just is what it is. The player can decide how they want to proceed.

In your scenario, he does not have to look for the original ball. However, if someone else saw where it ended up, or an opponent wanted to look for it, there is nothing stopping them. If it is then made clear to the player that a ball has been found, they need to identify it. They cannot ignore it. If it is the original ball, then the provisional needs to be abandoned.

However, if the player smacks a shot into trouble and doesn't want to bother looking (or fears it may be in huge trouble if found), they can immediately play stroke and distance, and not bother claiming it is a provisional. So, if original is then found, it is no longer in play. Of course, this action also means that if they got really lucky with the original, and it was OK, they could no longer play it anyway.

 

[Bdill93]

It can't really be abused, it just is what it is. The player can decide how they want to proceed.

In your scenario, he does not have to look for the original ball. However, if someone else saw where it ended up, or an opponent wanted to look for it, there is nothing stopping them. If it is then made clear to the player that a ball has been found, they need to identify it. They cannot ignore it. If it is the original ball, then the provisional needs to be abandoned.

However, if the player smacks a shot into trouble and doesn't want to bother looking (or fears it may be in huge trouble if found), they can immediately play stroke and distance, and not bother claiming it is a provisional. So, if original is then found, it is no longer in play. Of course, this action also means that if they got really lucky with the original, and it was OK, they could no longer play it anyway.

Thanks for this!

As I say, situation like this happened at the club a week or two ago and a few guys were asking what ruling we would all give etc. (Worrying the comp sec was the guy asking )

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks for this!

As I say, situation like this happened at the club a week or two ago and a few guys were asking what ruling we would all give etc. (Worrying the comp sec was the guy asking )

One of my mates got badly advised on this when he played at our new club (at the time).

In a competition he hit an terrible tee shot off the 1st, into the heather not far off the tee. He immediately said he'd ignore it, and just play 3 off the tee (which is allowed). The chap he played with said this is strictly forbidden, and he MUST look for the original. They actually found it. Took him many shots to get out, and he ended up in double figures.

So, it does pay to know the rules. However, as the marker, that means you can also stop somebody who says they'll ignore their original ball (after it is found), because they'd prefer to play with the provisional. I've seen that scenario a few times in the past.

 

[Bdill93]

One of my mates got badly advised on this when he played at our new club (at the time).

In a competition he hit an terrible tee shot off the 1st, into the heather not far off the tee. He immediately said he'd ignore it, and just play 3 off the tee (which is allowed). The chap he played with said this is strictly forbidden, and he MUST look for the original. They actually found it. Took him many shots to get out, and he ended up in double figures.

So, it does pay to know the rules. However, as the marker, that means you can also stop somebody who says they'll ignore their original ball (after it is found), because they'd prefer to play with the provisional. I've seen that scenario a few times in the past.

Yeah strikes me that this rule can be used in your benefit in the right scenario - but only obviously to recover from one very poor shot in the first place and not without penalty (the additional strokes)

 

[Steven Rules]

However, as the marker, that means you can also stop somebody

The marker has no special powers or privileges under the Rules to prevent or permit things happening.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It can't really be abused, it just is what it is. The player can decide how they want to proceed.

In your scenario, he does not have to look for the original ball. However, if someone else saw where it ended up, or an opponent wanted to look for it, there is nothing stopping them. If it is then made clear to the player that a ball has been found, they need to identify it. They cannot ignore it. If it is the original ball, then the provisional needs to be abandoned.

However, if the player smacks a shot into trouble and doesn't want to bother looking (or fears it may be in huge trouble if found), they can immediately play stroke and distance, and not bother claiming it is a provisional. So, if original is then found, it is no longer in play. Of course, this action also means that if they got really lucky with the original, and it was OK, they could no longer play it anyway.

Happened to me fairly recently. Topped a tee shot into some grim gorse and decided that I'd rather not go through the hassle of finding it after playing a provisional then probably choosing to take S&D and go back to the tee. So I just put a new ball in play. As it happens as I walked forward I spotted it and it looked as if it would have been playable, but doubt I'd have moved it very far. If I'd played a provisional I'd have prob been going back to the tee...however as I had put a new ball in play I did the best thing I could do with it - and so I picked it up and put it in my bag.

 

[BiMGuy]

Yeah strikes me that this rule can be used in your benefit in the right scenario - but only obviously to recover from one very poor shot in the first place and not without penalty (the additional strokes)

The rules don’t always have to punish you, sometimes they work in your favour.

Playing in an open last year I shanked my tee shot on a par 3 a long way into a dense wooded area. I hit another off the tee without declaring it a provisional, and stuck it with a couple of feet which ultimately led to a tap in for a four.

The lad I was playing with thought I needed to go look for the first. I had to explain that I had very deliberately not said I was hitting a provisional. And if he wanted he could go look for it, but even if he found it, the first ball was no longer in play.

Knowing where the ball went. If I had found the first ball, there was not a hope in hell of making a four.

 

[bobmac]

So someone hits his tee shot into a jungle of nettles and decides he doesn't even want to try and look for it, hits another ball stating first this is not a provisional ball, has he not changed the status of the first ball from missing to lost?

 

[BiMGuy]

So someone hits his tee shot into a jungle of nettles and decides he doesn't even want to try and look for it, hits another ball stating first this is not a provisional ball, has he not changed the status of the first ball from missing to lost?

No!

 

[rulefan]

So someone hits his tee shot into a jungle of nettles and decides he doesn't even want to try and look for it, hits another ball stating first this is not a provisional ball, has he not changed the status of the first ball from missing to lost?

The second ball is now the ball in play. The first is simply a ball - but not in play.

 

[Swango1980]

The marker has no special powers or privileges under the Rules to prevent or permit things happening.

OK, I do realise this. I was just making the general statement, reflecting a scenario that could happen. I used marker a bit casually to represent a person other than the player, with the marker being one of the most likely you'd be playing with (although, not in match play). What I really was implying was anybody that was with the person would correctly be justified in challenging the players actions as being incorrect under the rules.

 

[MiurasFan]

So someone hits his tee shot into a jungle of nettles and decides he doesn't even want to try and look for it, hits another ball stating first this is not a provisional ball, has he not changed the status of the first ball from missing to lost?

He or She doesn't even need to do that! Unless the player specifically states that it is a provisional ball, then it becomes the ball in play, as his or her 3rd shot. It is the calling of the 2nd ball a 'provisional' one that keeps the 1st one 'in play'. So the 'not a provisional' statement is redundant, though may act as a temper valve!

 

[bobmac]

He or She doesn't even need to do that! Unless the player specifically states that it is a provisional ball, then it becomes the ball in play, as his or her 3rd shot. It is the calling of the 2nd ball a 'provisional' one that keeps the 1st on 'in play'.

Yes I know.

The second ball is now the ball in play. The first is simply a ball - but not in play.

So unable to be found.
Out of play.
Not part of the hole anymore.
Hiding
Sulking
But definitely not lost

 

[Colin L]

It's very simple. The only way in which a ball becomes lost in rules terms is clearly defined: it's when it has not been found within three minutes after the player or their caddie has begun searching for it.

 

[rulefan]

It's very simple. The only way in which a ball becomes lost in rules terms is clearly defined: it's when it has not been found within three minutes after the player or their caddie has begun searching for it.

And causing the ball to be "not the ball in play" doesn't make it 'lost' (as defined).

 

[Colin L]

One of my mates got badly advised on this when he played at our new club (at the time).

In a competition he hit an terrible tee shot off the 1st, into the heather not far off the tee. He immediately said he'd ignore it, and just play 3 off the tee (which is allowed). The chap he played with said this is strictly forbidden, and he MUST look for the original. They actually found it. Took him many shots to get out, and he ended up in double figures.

So, it does pay to know the rules. However, as the marker, that means you can also stop somebody who says they'll ignore their original ball (after it is found), because they'd prefer to play with the provisional. I've seen that scenario a few times in the past..

Oh dear. Pity he hadn't realised that when he found his ball he could have taken stroke and distance anyway - assuming that the other player at least understood that

 

[Swango1980]

Indeed. I think he was either frazzled, or the player said he must now play it. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't realise stroke and distance was an option. Surprisingly, many don't seem to. Or maybe they can never be bothered going back. In this case, he didn't have far to walk

 

[LincolnShep]

Going back to the original question. If a ball is holed the hole is over for that player. If that player doesn't realise it's been holed, he may carry on playing with another ball. Those strokes won't count for the hole in play but do they have any other status? Isn't he practising? Or do the rules give a dispensation that "shots played under some misapprehension" do not count as practice?

 

[Steven Rules]

Just reinforcing post #7.

Rule 6.5
Completing Play of a Hole
A player has completed a hole:
.......
In stroke play, when the player holes out under Rule 3.3c.
If a player does not know that they have completed a hole and attempts to continue play of the hole, the player’s further play is not considered to be practice nor do they get a penalty for playing another ball, including a wrong ball.