Lost ball in GUR....possibly.

[User101]

Situation that cropped up Saturday past. Driving off in to a low sun I didn't see my drive at all but one of my playing partners did (down the middle with a slight draw he says) The hole is a downhill dogleg, upon arrival, ball no place to be seen but at the bottom of the hill there are numerous very soft patches of GUR marked out, but not all GUR.

How should we have proceeded ??

1. Lost ball, tough luck.
2. Lost ball in GUR ?

Interested in how we correctly should've played on ?

I should add, from the teeing ground, it is not possible to see your ball finish.

 

[Val]

You can’t lose a ball in GUR, you take relief with a replacement ball IF it is virtually certain that’s where it finished.

 

[chrisd]

The long walk back and 3 off the tee I'd say

 

[Colin L]

Just ask yourself if your ball could have been anywhere other than in the GUR. If the answer is yes ( and from what you say, that looks like the only possible answer), your ball is lost if not found after 5 minutes and you must proceed under stroke and distance. [Rule 27-1c]

 

[rulefan]

You need to 'know or be virtually certain' (KVC) the the ball is in GUR to be able to claim free relief.
See 25-1c
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-25,25-1

Otherwise you must play again from the tee with a 1 stroke penalty.

For an explanation of KVC see Decision 26-1/1
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-1

 

[Val]

Glad I added the virtually certain part in, I’m getting better with these rule questions 😂

 

[User101]

Just ask yourself if your ball could have been anywhere other than in the GUR. If the answer is yes ( and from what you say, that looks like the only possible answer), your ball is lost if not found after 5 minutes and you must proceed under stroke and distance. [Rule 27-1c]

Yes if "could've" been somewhere else other than GUR indeed. What I'm trying to say though is, in all likelyhood, it "could've" been lost in the frighteningly soft GUR, but due to no one being able to see the ball land (due to lie of land, not low sun) there is no way one could confirm it landed for sure in GUR, to which we would assume, lost ball, stroke and distance.....correct ?

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes if "could've" been somewhere else other than GUR indeed. What I'm trying to say though is, in all likelyhood, it "could've" been lost in the frighteningly soft GUR, but due to no one being able to see the ball land (due to lie of land, not low sun) there is no way one could confirm it landed for sure in GUR, to which we would assume, lost ball, stroke and distance.....correct ?

Yes - lost ball, and play stroke & distance.

The question as regards "could be" is of the type where you say "is it in the GUR or could it be somewhere else". If you say yes, it could possibly be somewhere else then yes, it could be in the GUR but you don't have the virtual certainty you need - and have to treat it as a lost ball. Virtual certainty is of a nature where you know it can't be anywhere else than in the GUR but you just can’t find it.

 

[User101]

So any guesses as to what happened on the next tee ??

 

[Slab]

So any guesses as to what happened on the next tee ??

Hole in one?

 

[User101]

Haha...i wish, the lost ball on 16 was then spotted on the 17th fairway, 30 yards further on from the GUR.

 

[atticusfinch]

I have always liked the "could it be elsewhere" rule of thumb, but would like to point out that is not a metaphysical question, but an evidence question. Something not found "could be" in a Schrödinger's cat box....we don't know all the forces in the universe.

But if we rephrase the question its objective becomes clear:"based on all the evidence and reasonable inferences and probabilities that can be drawn, could the ball be anywhere other than the GUR?" If we ask it like that in good faith, the "wishful thinking" gnome will not emerge and a result pleasing to the god of golf will result. :fore:

 

[backwoodsman]

I have always liked the "could it be elsewhere" rule of thumb, but would like to point out that is not a metaphysical question, but an evidence question. Something not found "could be" in a Schrödinger's cat box....we don't know all the forces in the universe.

But if we rephrase the question its objective becomes clear:"based on all the evidence and reasonable inferences and probabilities that can be drawn, could the ball be anywhere other than the GUR?" If we ask it like that in good faith, the "wishful thinking" gnome will not emerge and a result pleasing to the god of golf will result. :fore:

Not sure I'd bring Schrodinger's cat into this one. 'Cos that would mean the ball is both lost, and not lost at the same time. And then the devil alone would know which one you had to play

 

[rulefan]

What is Schrodinger's cat's handicap?

 

[atticusfinch]

What is Schrodinger's cat's handicap?

The dead cat is 6, the live cat is -9....but you can't be sure because simply asking alters the number. And then there's all that business with strings....very messy. Then, of course, the eternal question "Was Schrodinger Austrian or German?"