loss of hole, or not?

[Whereditgo]

I didn't actually witness this as it occurred in one of the other groups in a league match, but the incident caused a very heated discussion apparently.

A par 5 with OB all the way down the left; player A and B both pull their tee shots OB and play provisionals (there are trees between the fairway and the OB, so it's not always certain the ball has gone OB). Player C hits a good drive, then an even better 2nd to approx 6ft from the hole.

Player A makes a comment along the lines of "I think we've lost this hole" (I'm not sure of the exact wording used) and climbs over the stile in the fence to go find their balls. Player C, in an effort to be 'helpful / courteous' picks up A's ball with the intention of handing it back. Player A returns from the sheep field and seeing that his ball has been picked up claims the hole.

As it happens the result of the match was not affected.

 

[duncan mackie]

Not sure where loss of hole comes into it at all. Worse case C has a one stroke penalty (18-3b) but the story is a little confused and there may be grounds for no penalty if he reasonably believed A/B were conceding the hole.

 

[Region3]

Not sure where loss of hole comes into it at all. Worse case C has a one stroke penalty (18-3b) but the story is a little confused and there may be grounds for no penalty if he reasonably believed A/B were conceding the hole.

I was going to post 18-3b and 1 stroke penalty, but then underneath that in the rules it says PENALTY FOR BREACH - LOSS OF HOLE, and I got confused.

What is the loss of hole referring to?

b. Other Than During Search
If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

(Playing a wrong ball – see Rule 15-3)
(Ball moved in measuring – see Rule 18-6)
*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

 

[Spuddy]

I was going to post 18-3b and 1 stroke penalty, but then underneath that in the rules it says PENALTY FOR BREACH - LOSS OF HOLE, and I got confused.

What is the loss of hole referring to?

If you don't proceed according to the rule then that's the penalty. For example, a ball is moved but is then played as it lies rather than replaced.

 

[duncan mackie]

I was going to post 18-3b and 1 stroke penalty, but then underneath that in the rules it says PENALTY FOR BREACH - LOSS OF HOLE, and I got confused.

What is the loss of hole referring to?

Fundamentally 18 is dealing with what to do about a a ball at rest being moved (clue in title of rule) so it's telling A what to do if his ball is moved by an opponent etc. If he (A) fails to comply with those requirements ie replace it if moved) he would lose the hole.

Drat Spuddy got there quicker!

 

[Region3]

If you don't proceed according to the rule then that's the penalty. For example, a ball is moved but is then played as it lies rather than replaced.

Fundamentally 18 is dealing with what to do about a a ball at rest being moved (clue in title of rule) so it's telling A what to do if his ball is moved by an opponent etc. If he (A) fails to comply with those requirements ie replace it if moved) he would lose the hole.

Drat Spuddy got there quicker!

Thanks chaps. :thup:

Makes sense now.

 

[Kellfire]

I'm confused... Three man match play?

 

[backwoodsman]

I'm confused... Three man match play?

It's do-able. But I suspect it's more that Player D was of no consequence to the story.

 

[Colin L]

It's not a Threesome since both A & B played a teeshot, and it's not 3 Ball since A & B are obviously a side, but it could be Best Ball (C against the better ball of A & B).

I also assumed D wasn't mentioned simply because he wasn't relevant and that it was a 4 Ball.

 

[cliveb]

Quite apart from what the rules say about this situation, the thing that amazes me is that player A had the cheek to try and claim the hole when it was clear that it was lost and player C was just being polite. Are there really golfers out there who are so ruthless that they will apply the letter of the law even when it's against the spirit of the game? Or am I missing some subtle issue here?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Though hole wasn't actually lost at the point C picked up A's provisional. Player A could have stiffed his 4th and C three putted - for a half.

 

[Whereditgo]

Thanks for the replys guys.

I should perhaps have clarified that it was a 4BBB match, player D was not mentioned as he was not relevant.

I know player C very well and a more mild mannered genuine lad you couldn't wish to meet, so I have absolutely no doubt that he was simply trying to be helpful by picking up the ball.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks for the replys guys.

I should perhaps have clarified that it was a 4BBB match, player D was not mentioned as he was not relevant.

I know player C very well and a more mild mannered genuine lad you couldn't wish to meet, so I have absolutely no doubt that he was simply trying to be helpful by picking up the ball.

You seem to be remaining focused on C simply trying to be helpful; but that is completely irrelevant in this context. If he has reason to believe that the hole was conceded by A, but it was a misunderstanding, then the ball gets replaced for no penalty. If he simply expected A to concede but A wished to continue then, being the gentleman intimated, C would advice A to replace it and that he was taking a 1 shot penalty.
The only real gentlemanly option is from A if C us unaware that he has a penalty and A can overlook the penalty if he be lives that C was simply trying to be helpful.
The ungentlemanly option is for A to try and gain a significant advantage from C's apparent attempt to be helpful by diving in with an incorrect claim of he hole...but we all know people who would try and almost exactly this situation was the main driver to me spending decades studying the rules!

 

[Whereditgo]

From the explanation I was given Duncan, player C was certain (although perhaps mistaken) from what A had said, that the hole had been conceded.

I must confess that I thought that under the circumstances it should have been ball replaced as moved by an outside agency. But thinking it through perhaps as the ball was moved by an opponent that means it wasn't an outside agency?

This was a club B team match, which are generally played in a competitive yet friendly atmosphere. Having said that the guy I was partnered with on Saturday, was a bit of a prat, on one occasion he wanted to let our opponents search for a ball in the rough knowing that they were looking in the wrong place! When he told me, I immediately started looking where he knew it to be, our opponents joined me and we found the ball.

 

[JT77]

If c picked up the ball the 'a' could have taken it as a 4 being given thus meaning c has a putt to win the hole from 6 feet?

 

[3puttmaster]

Quite apart from what the rules say about this situation, the thing that amazes me is that player A had the cheek to try and claim the hole when it was clear that it was lost and player C was just being polite. Are there really golfers out there who are so ruthless that they will apply the letter of the law even when it's against the spirit of the game? Or am I missing some subtle issue here?

Unfortunately Clive there are a few out there who are win at all costs, although thankfully they seem to be very rare.

I played to a decent standard many years ago and in a tight match play game a rules query cropped up. We couldn't agree where he should take a penalty drop but thankfully all the games had referees assigned to them. The referee agreed with me which resulted in my opponent having to take a drop from a lateral water hazard quite a way back than from where he wanted to. This led to a massive 'toys out of pram' episode with a few expletives and my opponent storming off to the clubhouse without a handshake. Myself and the referee had to assume he had conceeded the game even though I was only then going to be 2 up with 3 to play. The vitriol continued when I returned and he also gave the referee more grief. His team captain had to take him outside and read him the riot act.

I've also come across opponents who make it all too clear that they are not interested in finding your ball if you are looking for it in the rough or trees. Sad really but I suppose it takes all sorts!

 

[palindromicbob]

errr ignore that