Loose Divot on Line of Play

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Simple one this but not sure.

Can a divot on my Line of Play but not a replaced divot be moved. From Rule 13.2

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved:

> his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or

by any of the following actions:

> removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or


So that is clear. Does this divot therefore fall under the definition of Loose Impediment in that it is

"Loose impediments" are natural objects, including:

•stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,


And a random divot is of the like

Except that you could say it is still 'growing' - which would exclude it from the definition of Loose Impediment

I am sure I will have moved divots such as this on many occasions over the years (though I can't recall last time I did it) and no-one has demurred - but my understood custom and practice does not always stand up to scrutiny under the rules - so I thought I'd check

 

[Maninblack4612]

Since the rule refers specifically to replaced divots it seems obvious that unreplaced divots can be moved.

 

[Val]

I was of the belief a non replaced divot is a loose impedement therefore can be moved. I'll stand to be corrected though.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Since the rule refers specifically to replaced divots it seems obvious that unreplaced divots can be moved.

Absolutely - but it doesn't say so and neither does the definition of Loose Impediment specifically include unreplaced divots (especially as some or most will still be growing - even though not 'attached'). And as we know, we should understand the rules exactly as we read them.

My question is almost 'under what rule or definition are we allowed to move unreplaced divots from our line of play?'

 

[KenL]

I believe a loose divot lying on the ground is a loose impediment just like a loose leaf. So, it can be moved as long as your ball does not move.

 

[Val]

I understand that you are looking for a wording that says you can move an unreplaced divot and the wording doesn't appear to be there.

Let me ask this question. What is the wording in the rule that allows you to joke out one handed whilst holding the flag?

 

[guest100718]

you're just looking for trouble.. an unreplaced divot is just a L I

 

[Colin L]

Absolutely - but it doesn't say so and neither does the definition of Loose Impediment specifically include unreplaced divots (especially as some or most will still be growing - even though not 'attached'). And as we know, we should understand the rules exactly as we read them.

My question is almost 'under what rule or definition are we allowed to move unreplaced divots from our line of play?'

There are many natural objects which are, by Definition, loose impediments but which are not mentioned in a list that is, after all, only illustrative. A loose divot meets the Definition (it's not "growing" in the sense of being a plant rooted in and growing out of the ground) and Rule 23 applies. The prohibition on moving a replaced divot or placed turf has the obvious objective of caring for the course, but you might also consider that it implies that they have to be treated as growing or attached by virtue of their being placed in position.

To put your question the other way round: what rule would you be breaking by moving a loose divot?

 

[freddielong]

If the rule specified a non replaced divot would you then also have to find the divot hole to prove that this is in fact what it is, for me an unreplaced divot is no longer a divot but a loose impediment, a lump of mud with grass attached that is no longer part of the course and can be moved. If one end of the divot is still attached to the ground then this cannot be moved.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There are many natural objects which are, by Definition, loose impediments but which are not mentioned in a list that is, after all, only illustrative. A loose divot meets the Definition (it's not "growing" in the sense of being a plant rooted in and growing out of the ground) and Rule 23 applies. The prohibition on moving a replaced divot or placed turf has the obvious objective of caring for the course, but you might also consider that it implies that they have to be treated as growing or attached by virtue of their being placed in position.

To put your question the other way round: what rule would you be breaking by moving a loose divot?

Only if the divot - through not 'replaced' and not 'attached' - was deemed to be 'growing'.

I'm happy now. I knew 99.99% that I could move the divot - but a PP asked me on Saturday and I was just checking.

As it happens the same PP told me (when subsequently discussing little known rules) that he had been reliably informed that in Matchplay a player must inform his opponent on the tee if he (the player) is giving his opponent a shot on the hole.

I said the player was not required to do so - and that it was his opponents responsibility to know the holes he gets shots. Unfortunately I did not have my copy of the rules on me so that I could point out the Note to Rule 6-2

The level of duff info on the rules that is spouted as fact is great.

 

[rosecott]

I understand that you are looking for a wording that says you can move an unreplaced divot and the wording doesn't appear to be there.

Let me ask this question. What is the wording in the rule that allows you to joke out one handed whilst holding the flag?

Decision 17-1/5

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I understand that you are looking for a wording that says you can move an unreplaced divot and the wording doesn't appear to be there.

Let me ask this question. What is the wording in the rule that allows you to joke out one handed whilst holding the flag?

Is 'to joke out' a euphemism?

 

[bladeplayer]

Is 'to joke out' a euphemism?

..
More than likely HOLE out just big fingers on phone H = J , k = L..

 

[Val]

Decision 17-1/5

Thanks for that, I had a fool argue I was in the wrong when he advised a FC that he had incurred a 2 shot penalty for holding the flag whilst holing out. He argued so much he didn't speak to me for 3 holes despite neither him or me being affected by the ruling. I told the guy concerned to check for himself but I was 100% certain

Is 'to joke out' a euphemism?

..
More than likely HOLE out just big fingers on phone H = J , k = L..

Fat fingers/spell check and a lack of proof reading

 

[atticusfinch]

I understand that you are looking for a wording that says you can move an unreplaced divot and the wording doesn't appear to be there.

Generally, the rules are rules of prohibition. if they do not prohibit something it is allowed.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Generally, the rules are rules of prohibition. if they do not prohibit something it is allowed.

As the saying goes. In England, everything that isn't specifically prohibited it's permitted. In Germany, if isn't specifically permitted, it's prohibited and, in Italy, everything is permitted whether or not it's prohibited.

 

[Val]

Generally, the rules are rules of prohibition. if they do not prohibit something it is allowed.

Which was kinda my point

 

[atticusfinch]

Correct, just offering support from the land of trump who is bent on destroying golf in scotland.

 

[KenL]

Correct, just offering support from the land of trump who is bent on destroying golf in scotland.

Eh! He has 2 courses out of about 500 - just don't play them.

I am more worried about his effect on the world rather than golf!

 

[BomberSRL]

As the saying goes. In England, everything that isn't specifically prohibited it's permitted. In Germany, if isn't specifically permitted, it's prohibited and, in Italy, everything is permitted whether or not it's prohibited.

:rofl: