Local Rules

[delc]

Because there is a (unsurprisingly, quite reasonable) specimen LR to cover exactly this condition in the Rules!

Your club's one differs from the specimen one also! Don't tell us you got them to change it because you 'didn't like it'! :mmm:

I believe what we do at our club is entirely within the specimen local rules. viz:

c. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25 and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.
However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When such conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“A ball lying on a closely-mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g. at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g. six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.
A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

In view of the recent extremely wetness, relief from a plugged lie only in the rough through the green is permitted. Otherwise you play the ball as it lies.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I think he's saying that the 'roll the ball out but don't clean it' is daft, not the common rule you describe.

Just for the record....yes, that is what I meant.

 

[Spuddy]

Delc's club is using two local rules. 'Preferred lies' on the fairway, and plugged balls through the green. A plugged ball on the fairway could either be dropped and then placed or placed straight away. The end result is the same. Obviously in the rough it's a drop only.... The bit that is wrong is the one club length, it should be as close as possible to the original position.

 

[Colin L]

Del
Earlier on you were quite muddled. Firstly the daft rule, as has been pointed out was the rolling the ball with a club from its pitch mark, and then there was a mixing up of two different rules: a) the permissible local rule allowing an extension of relief for an embedded ball to through the green and b) the permissible local rule allowing preferred lies from closely mown areas.

Now you seem still to be muddling these two local rules.

Extending relief for an embedded ball to anywhere through the green as opposed to just closely mown areas, doesn't alter the relief procedure: you must drop the ball as near as possible to where it lay (see Rulefan's post above). Nowhere do you place your ball in taking relief from an embedded ball.

Preferred lies can only be for closely mown areas. That is where your placing within 6" or a club length or a scorecard length - whatever is laid down in the rule - comes from.

If the preferred lies Local Rule is in place, you can of course lift and place an embedded ball on a closely mown area under that rule. But you are not proceeding under Rule 25-2. You are proceeding under the Local Rule.

Hope that is clear!

 

[rickg]

If the preferred lies Local Rule is in place, you can of course lift and place an embedded ball on a closely mown area under that rule. But you are not proceeding under Rule 25-2. You are proceeding under the Local Rule.

Hope that is clear!

Crystal clear, but I fear there will be a counter argument from del, either explaining why he was right , or why he wasn't wrong...

 

[delc]

Del
Earlier on you were quite muddled. Firstly the daft rule, as has been pointed out was the rolling the ball with a club from its pitch mark, and then there was a mixing up of two different rules: a) the permissible local rule allowing an extension of relief for an embedded ball to through the green and b) the permissible local rule allowing preferred lies from closely mown areas.

Now you seem still to be muddling these two local rules.

Extending relief for an embedded ball to anywhere through the green as opposed to just closely mown areas, doesn't alter the relief procedure: you must drop the ball as near as possible to where it lay (see Rulefan's post above). Nowhere do you place your ball in taking relief from an embedded ball.

Preferred lies can only be for closely mown areas. That is where your placing within 6" or a club length or a scorecard length - whatever is laid down in the rule - comes from.

If the preferred lies Local Rule is in place, you can of course lift and place an embedded ball on a closely mown area under that rule. But you are not proceeding under Rule 25-2. You are proceeding under the Local Rule.

Hope that is clear!

As we have pick, clean and place on closely mown areas anyway under Winter Local Rules, there is no real need to drop an embedded ball on the fairway (sorry, closely mown area) before placing it. I was referring to the specimen local rule which I copied from the R&A website.

 

[rickg]

Crystal clear, but I fear there will be a counter argument from del, either explaining why he was right , or why he wasn't wrong...

Right on cue!!

 

[Foxholer]

I believe what we do at our club is entirely within the specimen local rules.....

Why? Many club allow relief from plugged lies through the green under Winter Rules. At ours you can lift, clean and drop within one club length in the rough or place within 6" on a closely mown area, not nearer the hole, and I think that is pretty normal.

No issue with closely mown bit.

But if the above is what you do for 'plugged in the rough', then you are wrong!

The specimen LR states 'as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole'!

If the club actually uses the specimen LR, then you were wrong in your post about what they do!

 

[Colin L]

As we have pick, clean and place on closely mown areas anyway under Winter Local Rules, there is no real need to drop an embedded ball on the fairway (sorry, closely mown area) before placing it. I was referring to the specimen local rule which I copied from the R&A website.

Thanks Del. I think that's what I just said.

I did recognise the specimen local rule, by the way, but there was indeed a bit of a muddle earlier on. No matter, as long as it's clear now. :thup:

 

[Foxholer]

As we have pick, clean and place on closely mown areas anyway under Winter Local Rules, there is no real need to drop an embedded ball on the fairway (sorry, closely mown area) before placing it. I was referring to the specimen local rule which I copied from the R&A website.

I'd challenge this. And it may be something Colin missed (unusual I know)

You can't assume that the Drop under 25.2 is going to stay on closely mown - it can roll up to 2 club-lengths after all.

So, like other '2 types of relief' you must treat each relief situation separately. First take the 25.2, then perhaps be able to take Pref Lies.

No different to where you are in GUR and NPOR is on a Road/Track from which you also get relief (or vice-versa).

 

[Colin L]

I don't think I am missing something - or Del is for that matter. I think maybe you're overlooking the point that if your ball is lying on a closely mown area when preferred lies are in operation, you can lift, clean and place your ball whether it is sitting up on a tuft of grass, or disappearing under the surface in its pitch mark. You don't need to proceed under 25-2 if it is embedded. Your just take your preferred lie.

If, however, you had both local rules in place and your ball was embedded just at the edge of the rough but in it, your drop as near where the ball lay as possible could roll on to the fairway. I'll leave this as a question: if that happened could you then take a preferred lie?

 

[Fyldewhite]

I'd challenge this. And it may be something Colin missed (unusual I know)

You can't assume that the Drop under 25.2 is going to stay on closely mown - it can roll up to 2 club-lengths after all.

So, like other '2 types of relief' you must treat each relief situation separately. First take the 25.2, then perhaps be able to take Pref Lies.

No different to where you are in GUR and NPOR is on a Road/Track from which you also get relief (or vice-versa).

Don't thinkthere's a problem. There's nothing to say which situation has to be addressed first, and for that matter there's nothing compelling you to take relief from the plugged ball. The ball is on the fairway (albeit embedded) so you can lift/clean/place. End of.

 

[Foxholer]

Don't thinkthere's a problem. There's nothing to say which situation has to be addressed first, and for that matter there's nothing compelling you to take relief from the plugged ball. The ball is on the fairway (albeit embedded) so you can lift/clean/place. End of.

Doh! Correct! Challenge withdrawn!

As to Colin's question... Yes.

 

[Region3]

Interesting discussion evolved from a simple question

I decided to keep my gob shut. Since we don't have qualifiers anyway in the winter when this rule needs to be in effect, I decided I didn't care enough to argue with everyone who thought it was a good idea.

At least it's a step forward (in a perverse sort of way) from no local rule when 90% of the club thought it was a rule of golf and were doing it anyway :angry:

 

[rulefan]

To summarise.

Closely mown TTG.
Embedded Ball is always available under 25-2. Ball must be dropped anap.
Preferred Lies is only available if LR in force. Ball must be marked, lifted & placed within defined distance.

TTG
Embedded Ball only available if LR in force. Ball must be dropped anap.
Preferred Lies is never available.
In addition
Cleaning Ball only available if LR in force. Ball must be marked, lifted and replaced on original spot.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Was I unfair? Sorry.

No - sorry - not at all. Just commenting upon atticus finch

 

[rosecott]

Interesting discussion evolved from a simple question

I decided to keep my gob shut. Since we don't have qualifiers anyway in the winter when this rule needs to be in effect, I decided I didn't care enough to argue with everyone who thought it was a good idea.

At least it's a step forward (in a perverse sort of way) from no local rule when 90% of the club thought it was a rule of golf and were doing it anyway :angry:

I know it's late and I may not be thinking clearly but surely the rules of golf apply in both qualifiers and non-qualifiers - stands back to await a torrent of abuse.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I know it's late and I may not be thinking clearly but surely the rules of golf apply in both qualifiers and non-qualifiers - stands back to await a torrent of abuse.

You are of course right but I think the point being made is that in winter non qualies it really doesn't matter too much so clubs tend to do their own thing. Not right but it happens.

 

[Region3]

I know it's late and I may not be thinking clearly but surely the rules of golf apply in both qualifiers and non-qualifiers - stands back to await a torrent of abuse.

You are of course right but I think the point being made is that in winter non qualies it really doesn't matter too much so clubs tend to do their own thing. Not right but it happens.

Indeed.

Sometimes clubs use their own rules on occasion which renders competitions non-qualifying. Things I remember hearing/reading off the top of my head include preferred lies ttg and even shortened course or more than so many temporary greens.

Also lots of fun comps (3 club, piece of string, cross country etc) that make comps nq are run through the winter at other clubs too.
Since our winter comps are nq to start with, I figured they could do whatever the heck they liked

 

[Foxholer]

Since our winter comps are nq to start with, I figured they could do whatever the heck they liked

How do they do that?

To specify that a comp will be NQ is frowned upon by Congu - though there's some, but only some imo, logic to it.