paulstainton
New member
currently we have preferred lies in place - the ability to pick and place within 6 inches on short cut grass. If a player picks and places just off the putting green can they line their ball up to the flag when replacing it?
Line ball up when pick and place?
- Thread starter paulstainton
- Start date
rulie
Head Pro
Yes, they may align the ball any way they like, but only once. Once the ball is at rest and they take their fingers off the ball, the process has been completed.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Wherever you are, not just near the green.
salfordlad
Well-known member
and under any rule that requires a ball to be placed (and you are placing consistent with the requirements of the rule).
rulefan
Tour Winner
but the Rule says
and the player has let the ball go with the intent for that ball to be in play.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
If the players hand/fingers are still in contact with the ball is the ball still considered 'at rest' ? i.e player remove fingers and ball moves a tiny amount from sitting proud to no longer sitting proud, was the ball at rest? (I assumed it was)
I've just treated it like a chess move, once you take your fingers away the ball is in play, can you illustrate a scenario with your bit in bold that would mean the player hasn't placed the ball in play?
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
If a ball fails to stay on the spot where it is placed it must be replaced on the spot. If it fails to stay on the spot a second time the player must try another spot where it will stay at rest.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Big school day for me then, I assumed that providing the ball was still within the stated distance after being placed (not replaced) and didn't move nearer the hole then its tough i.e if it didn't stay on that convenient wormcast
Steven Rules
Well-known member
Just to flesh that out a little. There are some limitations when determining that spot where the ball will stay at rest.
It is the nearest spot not nearer the hole where the ball will stay at rest. That nearest spot must be in the same area of the course as the original spot, except that if the original spot was on the putting green the nearest spot must be either on the putting green or in the general area. Rule 14.2e
Steven Rules
Well-known member
Others have said it correctly (of course) but, for completeness, the text of Clarification 14.2c/1 relevant to this question is:
Ball May Be Replaced in Almost Any Orientation
When replacing a lifted ball on a spot, the Rules are concerned about only the location. The ball may be aligned in any way when being replaced (such as by lining up a trademark) so long as the ball's vertical distance to the ground remains the same.
Ball May Be Replaced in Almost Any Orientation
When replacing a lifted ball on a spot, the Rules are concerned about only the location. The ball may be aligned in any way when being replaced (such as by lining up a trademark) so long as the ball's vertical distance to the ground remains the same.
salfordlad
Well-known member
Hmmm, not quite sure what you are saying. The ball is back in play when placed on the spot and let go and does not instantly move when let go. If it remains still initially (there is no required minimum period, this is simply a question of fact) and then moves by natural forces (eg wind, gravity), that is, it is not movement caused by player, opponent, caddie, partner or outside influence, then it must be played where it came to rest unless it changed area of the course. It is irrelevant whether it is nearer or further from the hole and whether it fell off that teed up spot on a wormcast. (For completeness, similar but slightly different requirements apply on the putting green.)
rulefan
Tour Winner
So what do the following words mean?
"with the intent for that ball to be in play."
rulie
Head Pro
Isn't that a bit of a rhetorical question? Continue reading the definition will explain it.
rulefan
Tour Winner
If he lets the ball go to check that it doesn't eg fall into a depression, is he deemed to have the intent that the ball is in play? Or must he never let go of the ball.
The definition makes no mention of a ball that is placed only one that is replaced
Steven Rules
Well-known member
Test drops are not permitted. See Clarification 14.4/2. It refers to not being in the spirit of the game to test how a dropped ball will react. I think it would be reasonable to extrapolate that test (re)places - such as to see if the ball will fall into a depression - are not permitted either.
Select the specific spot to place/replace the ball as required. Let it go. If it immediately moves (i.e doesn't stay at rest on that spot) then follow the procedures in 14.2e.
Fun fact. The definition of replace does not stipulate that replace must be on the original spot. Indeed, the definition of replace says: Whenever a Rule requires a ball to be replaced, the Rule identifies a specific spot where the ball must be replaced.
'Place' is not a defined term. 14.3c(2) tells us that placing the ball involves using the procedures for replacing the ball.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Thanks. It's a while since I delved that deep.
salfordlad
Well-known member
It means a ball is not in play unless it was returned into play with intent to be in play.
But it is not returned into play (ie in play) if the player hasn't let go of the ball, regardless of intent. If the player has let it go with intent to be in play but the ball was never at rest and moves, the ball is in play but is in a wrong place. At club level, this is one of the most misunderstood rules - many balls are played from a wrong place and the players are blithely unaware.
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