Let battle commence! PGA V R&A and USGA

[cookelad]

A bit like the gimme argument - If it really is a gimme then you don't mind putting it, if you do mind putting it it wasn't a gimme!

If there is an advantage then the long putter advocates haven't a leg to stand on.

If there's no advantage then there's no disadvantage in not using one!

Maybe a simple summary. As Imurg says the R&A/USGA are looking at fairness of the stroke not the advantage gained!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

How much fun would it be if you had to play blades?

How about if everyone you knew had to play blades? - would they be enjoying their golf? or indeed even able to play very well at all?

Good point :thup:

It's not a good point at all. It is completely missing the point. Regardless of what irons you use, you still have to swing them in the same way with only your hands touching the club. The issue with the long putter isn't the club itself, it's the fact that it is anchored to the body.

 

[jimbob.someroo]

My take on this is, and always has been, the way the "stroke" is made.
Every other shot played in this game is played with the hand(s) being the only part of the body to touch the club.
Why should putting be any different? ...

I agree with the entirety of Imurg's post. Summed it up much better than I could.

Added to what he's said, I have three more gripes about the reason's being given for not implementing a ban.

1) According to the interview last night, "20% of all club players use belly / long putters". No they don't. I know statistics can be manipulated which ever way you want but that stat is laughable. I mean, it might be correct if they just interviewed; Tiger, Rory, Mickleson, Bubba and Bradley ...

2) "People have grown up using them and it would be unfair to take them away". No, people moved to them before they were a professional, because they would not have made it on tour the way they were putting previously. There's no way on earth that the first time you use a putter (whether it's at lesson, out with your dad or playing crazy golf) it's a long one. If you weren't good enough to be a pro using the short putter, you're not good enough to be a pro.

3) People like Ernie and Adam Scott who have moved to the long putter have done so because they lost confidence in the short one?! Tough. There's pro's that struggle with Driving or Iron play, they don't have a get out of jail free card to play. Find a way to get it in the hole with a short putter. Everyone else has.

:sbox::rant:

and breathe.

 

[Fader]

I agree with the entirety of Imurg's post. Summed it up much better than I could.

Added to what he's said, I have three more gripes about the reason's being given for not implementing a ban.

1) According to the interview last night, "20% of all club players use belly / long putters". No they don't. I know statistics can be manipulated which ever way you want but that stat is laughable. I mean, it might be correct if they just interviewed; Tiger, Rory, Mickleson, Bubba and Bradley ...

2) "People have grown up using them and it would be unfair to take them away". No, people moved to them before they were a professional, because they would not have made it on tour the way they were putting previously. There's no way on earth that the first time you use a putter (whether it's at lesson, out with your dad or playing crazy golf) it's a long one. If you weren't good enough to be a pro using the short putter, you're not good enough to be a pro.

3) People like Ernie and Adam Scott who have moved to the long putter have done so because they lost confidence in the short one?! Tough. There's pro's that struggle with Driving or Iron play, they don't have a get out of jail free card to play. Find a way to get it in the hole with a short putter. Everyone else has.

:sbox::rant:

and breathe.

1. Your clearly assuming he's talking whole world club golfers! He's US tour commissioner so I'd say he's talking about the US only club golfers which could easily equate to 20% based on population and number of club golfers.

2. Prove they wouldn't have made it on your without the putter! You can't, just like you can't say the reason they did make tour was purely because they used a long putter. What about all the others that didn't make it through using one or those that did at their expense using the short putter. The whole point is you nor I and not can the stats prove these guys made it there because try had a longer putter.

3. True they can find a way like everyone else has but everyone else has the freedom to use a long putter as well if they feel its beneficial.

 

[JustOne]

The issue with the long putter isn't the club itself, it's the fact that it is anchored to the body.

I don't agree.

Anchoring wouldn't be an issue if it was proven to give you WORSE stats. Rather like wearing blades when running in the Olympics... perfectly fine until you become competitive then who's going to want to watch Pistorius outrun Bolt?

It's been allowed in the game the same as metal drivers, hybrids, cavity back clubs, graphite shafts etc etc. A choice is all it is.

 

[mpluis]

I see players come so close to win a major like Adam scott in the open and nerves or pressure kick in and performance
drops, imagine holding a gun and be very nervous you will never win the Olympics.

Amateur golfers don't play under much pressure, even some put themselves to some pressure its different from tour.

Look at mclolly this past weekend, for sure some comments get in, if he was playing with a smile in is face and having fun
for sure it could be different, or even Poulter, one day makes incredible shots smiling, the other just freezes playing with
a men that is pure Pokerface performance, always the same level. that is the thing of this game...the player not the ball.

 

[6inchcup]

easy option let them leave and set up their own tour but ban any who play in it from playing in the majors,then we will see those that love the game for its traditions and history or those that don't care if they win or lose just as long as 20th place earns them a millionaires lifestyle.

 

[Imurg]

Too many people are getting caught up in the PGA's argument and not enough are listening to the R&A/USGA argument.
The PGA are whining about "no advantage" while the Rulemakers are looking at the fairness of the stroke
Really, the advantage argument is clouding the issue. It's irrelevent if there is an advantage or not.

I don't agree.

Anchoring wouldn't be an issue if it was proven to give you WORSE stats. Rather like wearing blades when running in the Olympics... perfectly fine until you become competitive then who's going to want to watch Pistorius outrun Bolt?

It's been allowed in the game the same as metal drivers, hybrids, cavity back pclubs, graphite shafts etc etc. A choice is all it is.

Read the top post again......

Performance, advantage - that's the PGA's argument.
Fairness of the stroke - that's the R&A's....

Completely unrelated....

The R&A/USGA are debating whether something's Black or White while the PGA are arguing if it's raining or not...

 

[SocketRocket]

It's a matter of how the stroke is produced not whether it gives an advantage. Once you could stand astride the ball and swing the putter through your legs, this was banned as it was considered to be an incorrect stroke.

Making parallells with Metal woods Hybrids or cavity backs is not comparing apples with apples as these devices do not affect the stroke.

Interestingly though, the only person I know in my club who uses one is the Club Professional.

 

[JustOne]

Read the top post again......

Performance, advantage - that's the PGA's argument.
Fairness of the stroke - that's the R&A's....

Completely unrelated....

The R&A/USGA are debating whether something's Black or White while the PGA are arguing if it's raining or not...

I don't think the stroke IS unfair.

For it to be UNFAIR you'd have to define what unfair actually is. If there's no advantage then how can you argue fairness? Some people like the method, it works for them, that's not unfair.

 

[mattdeeks]

I have 2 putters. A Never Compromise standard putter and a Nike Method Drone Belly Putter which I have been using for the last 6 months. Have I seen a drastic improvement in my putting with it, no I can't say I have.

If at the end of the day they ban the putter, I'll probably get it cut down as I quite like the look of the head.

 

[freddielong]

They are not looking to ban long putters unfortunatley it is just anchoring that they are trying to ban


Cant beleive Keegan Bradley has threatend legal action

 

[Imurg]

I don't think the stroke IS unfair.

For it to be UNFAIR you'd have to define what unfair actually is. If there's no advantage then how can you argue fairness? Some people like the method, it works for them, that's not unfair.

Do you anchor your driver to your body when you tee off...?
Do you anchor a 6 iron?
Or a wedge?
They're held in the hands - nothing else.

Why should putting be any different - the club should be held only in the hands during the swing.

 

[JustOne]

Do you anchor your driver to your body when you tee off...?
Do you anchor a 6 iron?
Or a wedge?
They're held in the hands - nothing else.

Funny enough I did have this idea about making a belly wedge for chipping, I reckon it'll catch on. Lots of people can't chip.

I'd anchor my driver if it meant I could hit it 300yds and straight. It wouldn't be unfair as you could do it too.

 

[Andy808]

If there is no advantage and a standard grip won't impair their putting why are so many who putt this way so against the change?

Simple fact is it helps them putt better than a hands only putting stroke does.

Does it give these players and advantage? Yes.

Does it improve their putting averages? Yes

Does it make them more competative? Yes

Is it then unfair on the rest of the players using a convetional putting grip? Yes

Personally I have no problem with anchoring being banned and if the PGA are right in saying it gives no advantage then there is no reason not to ban it.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

If there is no advantage and a standard grip won't impair their putting why are so many who putt this way so against the change?

Simple fact is it helps them putt better than a hands only putting stroke does.

Does it give these players and advantage? Yes.
No it doesn't, it allows them to compete better

Does it improve their putting averages? Yes
Agreed

Does it make them more competative? Yes
Agreed (apart from your spelling )

Is it then unfair on the rest of the players using a convetional putting grip? Yes
No, it isn't unfair on others


Personally I have no problem with anchoring being banned and if the PGA are right in saying it gives no advantage then there is no reason not to ban it.

My thoughts in bold

 

[Matty]

I find it amazing how this situation is being hijacked by the PGA Tour. Why did they choose to go public on this on the Sunday of a WGC? Wouldn't have been for maximum media impact at all would it?

If they say there is no advantage to be had in using a anchoring / longer putters, then why are they against the ban? By extension no advantage to the method means there is no disadvantage in removing it.

I strongly believe that the real argument behind all of this is that overall, when looking at all of the data for all players of all types of putter there is no difference in putting between players using conventional putting techniques compared to those using techniques the rules may in future ban.

However, when you consider some individual, high profile, Major winning players how use these anchoring / longer putting techniques they have returned their game to previous highs, so for them as an individual there most certainly was an advantage. These individuals have maybe made their feelings known to the PGA Tour pointing out that their game may well tumble with a ban on their putting stroke. So, ultimately, it is all about money.

 

[USER1999]

If they dont act on this, then the next generation of pros will contain an awful lot of users of the long putter. It is the stats of how many young players coming through that have never used the short putter that are frightening the rule makers. On current projections, the short putter will be gone in our life times. To me, this is not golf. It just isn't.

Long putters don't get swung like a golf club. Other styles of swinging have been banned before, so there is precedent.

Harringtons happy gilmore gives him more yards than a conventional drive. At the moment it's legal, I'm guessing if every one started doing it, they'd ban it. Correctly too. It's shinty, not golf.

 

[JustOne]

If they dont act on this, then the next generation of pros will contain an awful lot of users of the long putter.

So what?

 

[Crow]

How anybody can say it doesn't give an advantage over a standard putter is beyond me!

Attaching the putter to the belly or chest creates a pivot and so the putter becomes a pendulum.

This means the likelihood of the wrists rotating the putter is greatly reduced so lessening the chances of pulling or blocking the putt, which we're most prone to do when under pressure.

We all talk about a pendulum action when trying to hone a good putting stroke and for good reason, the belly putter takes away some of the skill required to do this.

Saying it can be used by everybody is not the point.
We could equip everybody with a little trowel so they could dig a channel in the green to keep the putt on line all the way to the hole. We could say everybody could do it and so no advantage is given.
It would be fair but it would be totally against the spirit of the game of golf, to me that's what the belly putter is.