Hosel Fade
Tour Rookie
That they are available earlier? or what am I missing
R&A and USGA announce new Local Rule
- Thread starter pogle
- Start date
That they are available earlier? or what am I missing
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
Sensible change when no real advantage is taken by the marker being moved. Replace it and keep going.
Only downside of it being a local rule is the inconsistency between clubs but hopefully the publicity will spur most into action.
Only downside of it being a local rule is the inconsistency between clubs but hopefully the publicity will spur most into action.
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
I really can't see the need to rush this in as a local rule. Some clubs will adopt straight away, others will ignore it until it's a proper rule. That just creates confusion, coupled with the fact hat even if implemented many players will probably wrongly penalise themselves because they are unaware of it. I know that would be due to ignorance but it's still not a very good situation.
More importantly though, it's a pretty basic idea that you don't touch or move a ball unless allowed by the rules and introducing a concept that "it's OK if it's accidental" is a big step. Why is it not OK if you are in the middle of the fairway and do exactly the same thing? What constitutes "accidental" anyway? Can just see inconsistency all over the show and why? Because the rule changes brought in last time are not working on the silly fast greens the pros play on watched by slo mo cameras. I really don't see what was wrong with "you've addressed the ball", "it moved", "it's a penalty". Not always fair but neither is landing in a divot and this happens once in a blue moon (think I've done it once on the green in 25 years of competition golf). Sledgehammer to crack a nut IMHO.
More importantly though, it's a pretty basic idea that you don't touch or move a ball unless allowed by the rules and introducing a concept that "it's OK if it's accidental" is a big step. Why is it not OK if you are in the middle of the fairway and do exactly the same thing? What constitutes "accidental" anyway? Can just see inconsistency all over the show and why? Because the rule changes brought in last time are not working on the silly fast greens the pros play on watched by slo mo cameras. I really don't see what was wrong with "you've addressed the ball", "it moved", "it's a penalty". Not always fair but neither is landing in a divot and this happens once in a blue moon (think I've done it once on the green in 25 years of competition golf). Sledgehammer to crack a nut IMHO.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Its a good thing but makes you wonder why its on the putting green only
As mentioned whats the difference whether its on the green or a closely mown area?
As long as the ball is replaced in both cases why should an accident be penalized on the fairway but okey dokey on the green
I've now't to support it but I'd wager a £ to a bucket of ferrets more 'accidents' like this happen on closely mown fairways just on the banks/slopes around raised greens than on the putting surface
Unfortunately it seems as if a couple of poor publicity incidents are driving rules reviews when it might be better to eliminate slo-mo high def macro reviews & let on-site referee decisions be final
As mentioned whats the difference whether its on the green or a closely mown area?
As long as the ball is replaced in both cases why should an accident be penalized on the fairway but okey dokey on the green
I've now't to support it but I'd wager a £ to a bucket of ferrets more 'accidents' like this happen on closely mown fairways just on the banks/slopes around raised greens than on the putting surface
Unfortunately it seems as if a couple of poor publicity incidents are driving rules reviews when it might be better to eliminate slo-mo high def macro reviews & let on-site referee decisions be final
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Because people would be "accidentally" moving the ball on the fairway to improve a lie , they would call across and say that the ball moved etc etc - never witnessed anyone ball move "accidentally" on the fairway or closely mown areas
It's a rule that doesn't massively affect the Am's - in all the time I have been playing I have never seen someone's ball move when they address etc - quite simply because we rarely play on the pace of green said the pros
But it's happened a few times in comps for Pros so it seems a very sensible rule to bring in to cover that very small percentage that happen on the pro circuit
But on the fairways ?! Sorry but no
It's a rule that doesn't massively affect the Am's - in all the time I have been playing I have never seen someone's ball move when they address etc - quite simply because we rarely play on the pace of green said the pros
But it's happened a few times in comps for Pros so it seems a very sensible rule to bring in to cover that very small percentage that happen on the pro circuit
But on the fairways ?! Sorry but no
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
No point doing this is there really because the ball has to be replaced and only a cheat wouldn't replace it and that's not what the rules is there for
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
So why do you need the rule for a fairway ? What sort of situation have you witnessed where this rule could be valid
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
As we only seen it happen rarely on the green on the tellybox so I could as easily ask why do we need the rule for the green? It was the poor handling that caused the issue not the rule
But on the basis you'd support it as a sensible rule for the very small % of occurrences on pro circuit why wouldn't 'accidental movement' be sensible rule for the very small % of occurrences it happens on a nicely shaved slope next to a green
Whats the difference
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
That sort of avoided the question
There have been a number of cases of the ball moving on the green because purely by the nature of the green and the way it is cut and the slopes there will be a chance of it moving because of the wind or the cut of the green
Now on fringes and fairways the cut isn't as sharp and many times the ball is resting against the grain and I can't recall any incident where the Ball has moved on the fringe or fairways
It seems a very sensible rule to bring in to ensure that if and no doubt when it does happen again it won't affect the result ( as it has done over the years a number of times )
The rule will be very rarely used in an am game but it's good that the whole game is aligned as much as possible together
The obvious recent incident that happened was of course Johnson - his ball moved and it was decided that correctly within the rules set out. Now that incident won't happen and for me in regards DJ it was how long they took to sort out not the actual ruling which I believe to be correct at that time
So I'll ask again - why does it need to be on the fairway ? Have you ever encountered an incident of someone being punished because of accidental moving the ball on the fairway or indeed banks etc as your initial statement was suggesting that was more likely than on the green ?
Robobum
Money List Winner
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/umi4vWz9IBF/British+Masters+Day+Three/ob1ayFo2diT/Alex+Noren
This took about 10minutes of fannying about to resolve.
This took about 10minutes of fannying about to resolve.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
It doesn't need to be on the fairway
I'm simply saying if you are going to have an LR (then rule) applicable on the green to protect the very small percentage of accidental movement incidents then why not include the fairway (where slopes tend to be somewhat steeper incline than most greens, even if the cut isn't quite as short)
What if DJ is on a shaved slope a couple of inches off the green at the 2017 US Open and the same scenario happens that the player didn't cause it to move and with the same indecision, reviews, delays, unknown score, eventual penalty etc etc etc
You think folks would completely accept it as totally correct handling even though the US Open was ruined for the 2nd year running and nobody would kick off just because he was just off the green
DJ does nowt different to 2016, USGA do nowt different to 2016 and in Dec 2017 there's a new LR for accidental movement on closely mown areas because of a high profile screw up
I'm simply saying if you are going to have an LR (then rule) applicable on the green to protect the very small percentage of accidental movement incidents then why not include the fairway (where slopes tend to be somewhat steeper incline than most greens, even if the cut isn't quite as short)
What if DJ is on a shaved slope a couple of inches off the green at the 2017 US Open and the same scenario happens that the player didn't cause it to move and with the same indecision, reviews, delays, unknown score, eventual penalty etc etc etc
You think folks would completely accept it as totally correct handling even though the US Open was ruined for the 2nd year running and nobody would kick off just because he was just off the green
DJ does nowt different to 2016, USGA do nowt different to 2016 and in Dec 2017 there's a new LR for accidental movement on closely mown areas because of a high profile screw up
G
guest100718
Guest
If you include the fairway people would abuse the rule and cheat.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Doesn't that apply to all rules though (inc the new accidental movement LR on the putting green) cheaters gonna cheat. There's separate rules to deal with that
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Ok I'll try this situation
You are playing and your PP shouts across that his ball has accidentally moved into a divot - so by your thinking he can now move that ball away from the divot - now how do you know he is telling the truth , you didn't see the ball move , so you trust him
On the green you are all in vicinity of each other - at least one of you will more than likely be looking at the ball so if it does move you can see it and then make the judgement
Allowing the fairway to be included it opens itself up to abuse and I have no doubt there will be people who will use it to get themselves a better lie on the fairway
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Then those folks deserve all the punishment golf allows but as I said to paddy's post, cheaters will cheat regardless (even on the new LR as it stands)
But why not just try the situation I outlined
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Then those folks deserve all the punishment golf allows but as I said to paddy's post, cheaters will cheat regardless (even on the new LR as it stands)
But why not just try the situation I outlined
But you give them a rule that allows them to openly abuse it - might as well make it pick and place 365 days a year.
The Johnson issue was down to the time taken not the actual rule itself - the adjudged correctly. And if it does happen on a fridge or fairway then the rules are there to judge it -but as I believe it's far less likely to happen in those areas because the ball isn't sitting on a perfectly manicured green running at 16 on the stimp - so it's not a situation they need to look at where as there is enough high profile incidents on the green for them to look at and make a change and they have done. I expect it will have covered the main issue now.
Joining in on this. On the putting surface the lie is usually pretty consistent and true. Yes you get the odd pitch mark and so on but 99% of the time the lie is the same within a reasonable circumference of the ball. Replacing your ball on the putting surface rarely gains an advantage, assuming you don't move it closer. Fairways, whole different ball game. All sorts of different lies possible there so an "accidental" move and replace has far greater chance of advantage.
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
I'm not sure anyone is advocating that it should be introduced on fairways. My point above is that I really really can't see anything wrong with the old rule. You get penalised if the ball moves after address.....end of. Not always fair but the rules aren't always fair. They have meddled with that principle and now gone a step further introducing the concept of "accidental" into the rules. All because of tournament play and slo-mo hi-res TV. This has nothing to do with fairness for anyone like us.....it's an attempt to give the authorities a get out clause from the mess they find themselves in due to meddling with the rule in the first place.......and introducing it as a local rule first is just a knee jerk reaction that at club level just makes for confusion all round. Well done. :thup:
rulie
Head Pro
One of the issues with penalizing if the ball moves after address is with hazards - bunkers and water hazards. When has a player addressed the ball in a hazard?
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
As you know he doesn't.
FW has simply confused the issue with the reference to addressing - the principle here is simply when you have caused the ball to move.
In response to the wider questions being posed; the relavant fundamental is that you don't get penalised on the putting green if you cause the ball to move when removing a loose impediment - everywhere else on the course you do. This rule would therefore be in direct conflict with that principle if extended, and move us yet another step away from 'play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it'.
Fwiw I'm not a fan of this - it smacks of a rule change to emphasise the problems the committees have implementing the current rules. You will still need to do this anyway to agree whether the ball gets replaced ( but as the majority of the time it won't matter a rule official won't waste time on a ruling now.
