Leaving ball in a position to benefit another player

[effayjay]

Player A leaves his ball near the hole. Player B may benefit from the position of player A’s ball. If this is done without agreement between the two players is there a penalty for either?

 

[rulefan]

See Rule 15.3

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=3

 

[Steven Rules]

In stroke play, there must be agreement between the players for a (general) penalty to apply. No agreement, no penalty. 15.3a and 15.3a/1.

No penalty in match play. 15.3a/2

Another player may require that a helping ball be lifted. 15.3a

 

[Steven Rules]

One for the experts and referees. Prior to 2019, old Decision 22/7 permitted a referee to intervene to get a helping ball lifted, whereas post-2019 under Rule 15.3a only a player may require that a helping ball be lifted.

In the transition to the post-2019 Rules, Decision 22/7 was eliminated and the outcome changed.

As a referee, post-2019, how do you approach a situation where you believe a potentially helping ball should be lifted? Do you just bite your tongue?

 

[salfordlad]

One for the experts and referees. Prior to 2019, old Decision 22/7 permitted a referee to intervene to get a helping ball lifted, whereas post-2019 under Rule 15.3a only a player may require that a helping ball be lifted.

In the transition to the post-2019 Rules, Decision 22/7 was eliminated and the outcome changed.

As a referee, post-2019, how do you approach a situation where you believe a potentially helping ball should be lifted? Do you just bite your tongue?

Although that change was made, RBs have published substantive guidance on "backstopping", basically, don't do it. Unless there was a very good reason not to bother (eg other shots much further away, significant pace of play issue), I would protect the field and require it to be marked.

 

[rulefan]

If both players have made an agreement they would be subject to a penalty, so I would intervene in order to prevent there being a breach.
Since the change I have not encountered a situation where the players had not made some sort of agreement but I would probably point out the potential for assistance. If the players agreed that ball should be left I would then point out the penalty consequences and apply them if they didn't mark.

I found this but thought there was more out there.:

R&A and USGA clarification​

In their quarterly clarifications and updates to the 2019 Rules of Golf, the game’s governing bodies – the R&A and USGA – clarified Rule 15.3 at the start of 2020, saying they took the view that ‘backstopping’ failed to take into account all the other players in an event and had “the potential to give the player with the ‘backstop’ an advantage over those other players”.
As a result, they offered the following guidance and explanation of best practice:
– In stroke play, the competition involves all players and, because each player in the competition cannot be present to protect his or her own interests, protecting the field is an important responsibility that all players in the competition share.
– Therefore, in stroke play, if there is a reasonable possibility that a player’s ball close to the hole could help another player who is about to play from off the green, both players should ensure that the player whose ball is close to the hole marks and lifts that ball before the other player plays.
– If all players follow this best practice, it ensures the protection of the interests of everyone in the competition.

 

[salfordlad]

If both players have made an agreement they would be subject to a penalty, so I would intervene in order to prevent there being a breach.
Since the change I have not encountered a situation where the players had not made some sort of agreement but I would probably point out the potential for assistance. If the players agreed that ball should be left I would then point out the penalty consequences and apply them if they didn't mark.

I found this but thought there was more out there.:

R&A and USGA clarification​

In their quarterly clarifications and updates to the 2019 Rules of Golf, the game’s governing bodies – the R&A and USGA – clarified Rule 15.3 at the start of 2020, saying they took the view that ‘backstopping’ failed to take into account all the other players in an event and had “the potential to give the player with the ‘backstop’ an advantage over those other players”.
As a result, they offered the following guidance and explanation of best practice:
– In stroke play, the competition involves all players and, because each player in the competition cannot be present to protect his or her own interests, protecting the field is an important responsibility that all players in the competition share.
– Therefore, in stroke play, if there is a reasonable possibility that a player’s ball close to the hole could help another player who is about to play from off the green, both players should ensure that the player whose ball is close to the hole marks and lifts that ball before the other player plays.
– If all players follow this best practice, it ensures the protection of the interests of everyone in the competition.

That is the guidance I was referring to. The super short version: don't do it. And if you are a player or a referee and you see it, intervene to protect the field.

 

[Steven Rules]

I would protect the field and require it to be marked.

Thanks.

 

[rulefan]

One for the experts and referees. Prior to 2019, old Decision 22/7 permitted a referee to intervene to get a helping ball lifted, whereas post-2019 under Rule 15.3a only a player may require that a helping ball be lifted.

In the transition to the post-2019 Rules, Decision 22/7 was eliminated and the outcome changed.

As a referee, post-2019, how do you approach a situation where you believe a potentially helping ball should be lifted? Do you just bite your tongue?

And your approach?

 

[Steven Rules]

If both players have made an agreement they would be subject to a penalty, so I would intervene in order to prevent there being a breach.
Since the change I have not encountered a situation where the players had not made some sort of agreement but I would probably point out the potential for assistance. If the players agreed that ball should be left I would then point out the penalty consequences and apply them if they didn't mark.

I found this but thought there was more out there.:

R&A and USGA clarification​

In their quarterly clarifications and updates to the 2019 Rules of Golf, the game’s governing bodies – the R&A and USGA – clarified Rule 15.3 at the start of 2020, saying they took the view that ‘backstopping’ failed to take into account all the other players in an event and had “the potential to give the player with the ‘backstop’ an advantage over those other players”.
As a result, they offered the following guidance and explanation of best practice:
– In stroke play, the competition involves all players and, because each player in the competition cannot be present to protect his or her own interests, protecting the field is an important responsibility that all players in the competition share.
– Therefore, in stroke play, if there is a reasonable possibility that a player’s ball close to the hole could help another player who is about to play from off the green, both players should ensure that the player whose ball is close to the hole marks and lifts that ball before the other player plays.
– If all players follow this best practice, it ensures the protection of the interests of everyone in the competition.

Yes. That, plus some additional words, came out with the January 2020 Clarifications. In 2023 it is in Committee Procedures 5J(7).

 

[Steven Rules]

And your approach?

I think I would intervene.....sheepish in the knowledge that the Rules no longer provide explicit authority for me to do so.

I don't recall a situation post-2019 where it has arisen for me as a referee. I do recall a number some years ago pre-2019.

 

[rulefan]

I think I would intervene.....sheepish in the knowledge that the Rules no longer provide explicit authority for me to do so.

I don't recall a situation post-2019 where it has arisen for me as a referee. I do recall a number some years ago pre-2019.

I think pretty well all elite players had already cottoned on to the old rule and in the last few years I have been more conscious of players marking without reference to the other player.

 

[salfordlad]

Thanks.

It would make no sense to me if the referee's capacity to protect the field was more constrained than the authority that 15.3 provides to other players.

 

[Neilds]

I always think this situation is a bit strange as the hole is bigger than the ball so why would people aim at the smaller object?

 

[Steven Rules]

It would make no sense to me if the referee's capacity to protect the field was more constrained than the authority that 15.3 provides to other players.

And yet Decision 22/7 was eliminated and 'outcome changed'.

 

[salfordlad]

And yet Decision 22/7 was eliminated and 'outcome changed'.

The Rules are the outcome of a Committee process.

 

[rulefan]

And yet Decision 22/7 was eliminated and 'outcome changed'.

In a relatively minor way though

 

[salfordlad]

I always think this situation is a bit strange as the hole is bigger than the ball so why would people aim at the smaller object?

That is not the issue. It is the possibility of a player getting an unmerited advantage from being stopped by an outside influence closer to the hole than the stroke deserved.

 

[effayjay]

I am a bit confused.
Reply #3 is clear that no agreement means no rule breach but the clarification in reply#6 seems to contradict this?

 

[Steven Rules]

The clarification in #6 is guidance on best practice in order to avoid even a perception of backstopping. No mention of penalties in that guidance. No conflict with #3.