Justice for the 96

[Imurg]

Surely they were expecting fans without tickets?

So your favourite band/team whatever are appearing at a stadium near you. You don't have a ticket. Do you expect to get in? If you do get in are you not increasing the numbers possibly beyond safe limits?

This is all I'm saying.

If the stand could hold 10,000 and 10,000 were in there then the tragedy may not have happened. If 15,000 got in then it was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[thecraw]

It's clearly a passionate and raw affair to many people, understandably so.

I can't help but notice that someone is an idiot or ignorant or whatever for suggesting that fans may(or may not) be responsible, yet the same poster wants to apportion blame at everyone elses door even before the inquest. Maybe we should call you the same for voicing hour opinion before the inquest.

Sadly the tragedy happened, that cant be changed, hopefully lessons are learned.

It may be time to lock this thread down as I can see it spiraling in a touchy direction,especially when some people are so passionate and emotionally attached.

 

[FaldosJumper]

No mate, they'd turn up to buy off touts and the like. I don't think they expected a gate to be opened and they all get in from there. Maybe they thought you could pay on the gate too.

 

[HRC99]

So your favourite band/team whatever are appearing at a stadium near you. You don't have a ticket. Do you expect to get in? If you do get in are you not increasing the numbers possibly beyond safe limits?

This is all I'm saying.

If the stand could hold 10,000 and 10,000 were in there then the tragedy may not have happened. If 15,000 got in then it was a disaster waiting to happen.

Plenty of people turn up to sold out sporting events and concerts without tickets even now. Stadia in this country have been transformed as a result of what happened on that tragic day so that they are better able to cope with the crowds.

To put any of the blame onto people outside for turning up is ridiculous.

 

[HRC99]

It's clearly a passionate and raw affair to many people, understandably so.

I can't help but notice that someone is an idiot or ignorant or whatever for suggesting that fans may(or may not) be responsible, yet the same poster wants to apportion blame at everyone elses door even before the inquest. Maybe we should call you the same for voicing hour opinion before the inquest.

Because of the tireless work of Trevor Hicks and the Hillsborough Family Support Group a very great deal is known about what happened that day now. There is more to be learned but much, of what is expected from the release of these documents, relates to the subsequent cover up and, to what extent the Government of the day was involved.

I would very much urge against the locking of this thread. Most of people's ideas about what happened that day still stem from the reports in the papers and the broadcast media in the days, weeks and months after th tragedy.

These ideas need to be challenged now more than ever so that people understand the real truth about that day.

 

[thecraw]

Plenty of people turn up to sold out sporting events and concerts without tickets even now. Stadia in this country have been transformed as a result of what happened on that tragic day so that they are better able to cope with the crowds.

To put any of the blame onto people outside for turning up is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous Henry?

 

[Imurg]

To put any of the blame onto people outside for turning up is ridiculous.

Anyone who was outside and didn't go in without a ticket - they're blameless - they're irrelevent to what happened.
Those who got IN without a ticket are the ones who have to shoulder some of the blame.

Overcrowding was the ultimate reason for this happening - or am I missing something..??

 

[Spoff]

I'm neither a bigot or a Sun reader, Liverbird.

It is more than clear there is a cover up and the family of those who lost their lives certainly should know the truth.

I think it is wrong, however, that that those who turned up ticketless and tried to force their way in for free are just as culpable for the disaster.

 

[HRC99]

Why is it ridiculous Henry?

It was and is entirely normal for people to turn up to major events without tickets in the hope of buying one/getting given a spare etc. Go to any football or rugby match or concert of any size today and you will see plenty of people without tickets. It was and has always been customary for this to happen.

One thing after another failed or went wrong that day which led to the tragedy but the fact that more people would be there than had tickets was a certainty and should have been handled very differently.

Sadly, it took a tragedy, as it so often does, for the lessons to be learned and stadia in this country and around the world are vastly different places now to what they were in 80s and are able to cope with the crowds better.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

What a terrible thing Hillsborough was, so many people needlessly dead, for what?Wanting to watch a game of football.
Lots of people need to carry some sort of blame, from the casuals that made fencing a requirement, to the policing that opened the gate but didn't shepherd them away from the central pen.

And lets be honest, back in the day, all football supporters had elements that tried to 'jib' into games, I've done it at grounds all over Scotland and occasionally England, and both Liverpool and Man Utd supporters were well known for it.So there will be lads who have to live with the fact they tried to get into that end on that day without a ticket, they'll have to accept and live with that.If they thought for one minute it might result in the deathof 96 fellow fans, they wouldn't have.

But the fact remains, and whether Liverpool fans accept it or not, that a small portion of responsibilty of what happened on that day, was down to the element of Liverpool fans who tried to jib in.

 

[HRC99]

Anyone who was outside and didn't go in without a ticket - they're blameless - they're irrelevent to what happened.
Those who got IN without a ticket are the ones who have to shoulder some of the blame.

Overcrowding was the ultimate reason for this happening - or am I missing something..??

I'm neither a bigot or a Sun reader, Liverbird.

It is more than clear there is a cover up and the family of those who lost their lives certainly should know the truth.

I think it is wrong, however, that that those who turned up ticketless and tried to force their way in for free are just as culpable for the disaster.

The gate was opened - it was not forced or stormed, it was opened by the police on the orders of the Match Commander - who then lied to all concerned saying that Liverpool fans had stormed the gate. This single lies led to over 22 years of ignorance of what happened.

The kick off had not been delayed so those outside (who had been there some time trying to get in) could hear the game underway and were desperate to get in - it was an FA Cup Semi Final back when the FA Cup still meant something.

The crowd was swept in - people who had tickets, people who didn't have tickets and people who had tickets for different gates too.

People turn up to matches and events without tickets all the time. It wasn't an unusual scenario, it was expected. If that is the case, why did 96 people lose their lives that day?

 

[Liverbirdie]

At the end of the day, we are campaigning for the end of the ignorance, lies and cover up that has surrounded this event for 22 years. The comments by Spoff are just an example of this.

There are many reasons that I can go into, but it has been better covered elsewhere many, many times, but unfortunately some people just have their own agenda.

When other footy fans say what about ticketless fans, has there ever been a semi-final when ticketless fans have not turned up? If they have it is to buy off touts, which are always there due to failures in the FA's ticketing policies for 40 years. At the end of the day, police are trained to cover all eventualities, and it had been well policed only the year before.

Ticket cordons 200 yds before the turnstiles, the previous game was put back 10 minutes etc, but an inexperienced copper was in charge that day, THE STADIUM DID NOT HAVE A SAFETY CERTIFICATE FOR goodness SAKE, they cordonned off the tunnel to the central pens once full ETC ETC. These were just some of the things that were handled quite well the year before.

Listen I'm not saying that LFC fans are all angels, and especially not in the 1980's , but I hate double standards from other footy fans, when questioning about people having a drink (it was an FA cup semi) and other such things. LFC fans acted just as all other supporters would act that day, good and bad,except they were sadly also asked to give the kiss of life to friends and strangers, acted as stretcher bearers whilst there was 40 ambulances outside the ground, and whilst the police were batoning fans back into pens that had dead people in.

Think a bit more before spouting.

Any comments on 911 - They should have never built them after what Nostradamus predicted.

Any comments on 7/7?????

 

[Shaunmg]

How do we know people turned up without tickets? I’ve even seen numbers quoted 6 000 to 8000. Is there some kind of register that people have to sign saying they are ticketless ? where do the figures come from. Forgive my sarcasm, but I thought that myth had been disposed of years ago, dismissed as one of the many cover up and blame shifting lies from the establishment

I have yet to see a big match where fans without tickets show up in the hope of buying one from the army of touts you saw at every big game, particularly rife in the 80s. Was it only Liverpool fans and not Forests who turned up without tickets

If the police thought ticketless fans were an issue, then even more reason for them not opening the gates.

Let me put these points to you;

1. The late arrival of thousand of Liverpool fans was due to unannounced delays on the M62, and not the cover up version of ticketless and drunken fans

2. The police, even though they knew Liverpool had the largest contingent of fans decided to allocate the 15,000 capacity Leppings lane end to them and the 21,000 Spion Kop end the Forest fans .

3. When the gates were opened, all crowd control measures were abandoned, fans could have been easily directed to the outer pens with spare capacity, rather than being allowed to make for the central pens that were already full

The Taylor report concluded the lack of police control was to blame. I’m sorry Spoff of course you’re not bigoted, but to suggest ticketless fans were in any way to blame is naïve to the extreme

 

[FaldosJumper]

Two excellent informed posts. With points I'd seen/heard before but forgot about... Tragic

Hopefully soon they can rest in peace.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Two excellent informed posts. With points I'd seen/heard before but forgot about... Tragic

Hopefully soon they can rest in peace.

Thanks Faldo's jumper. We also remember the people who have backed/helped us over the years.

Newcastle was one of those, Glasgow beyond compare, as well as lots of other fans all over the country, including most Man U fans. Great words by 2 north east MP's in parliament the other night, as well as MP's from Nottingham, Sheffield as well as our MP's in Liverpool.

 

[WeekendHacker]

I have compassion for the people and their families but part of me thinks these people are only pro-longing their suffering by not letting this go. People made mistakes, people lied, people sadly died. There seems to be a part of people that wants someone to blame as soon as anything bad happens, like finding someone and punishing them will make it all better, but that won't change what's happened. I mean, 22 years, live your life rather than regretting and grasping onto the past. I know it's easy for me to say, as I haven't been affected but...just my view.

 

[bluewolf]

I agree in part with what you say WH, but if the truth came out straight after the disaster, then the anger and resentment would have dissipated by now. What people want/need is the truth about what happened to be made public, and the people involved in the cover up and transferrance of blame to be held accountable for their decisions. I have never heard anyone say that No Liverpool fans should shoulder a portion of the blame. Everyone involved should bear the burden of guilt, but the cover up and despicable reporting of the time needs to be held up to the light so that people who have ill informed opinions can have the chance to change them. We will never move on from this until the truth is known by all parties. If no one did anything wrong, then why restrict the access to the information..

 

[pokerjoke]

One of the reasons i didnt make a comment,is because i wasnt there and i havnt seen the report.
One thing i would like if it was one of my family is closure.It wouldnt matter how long.
You only have to see Liverpool fans and there passion for the game,to know they deserve closure.
I cant imagine the pain for the familys at the time,and its still there now because questions need
answering.
Im hoping that all will be revealed,but i also worry that new things will come to light and this saga will
run on and on.
My best goes to all involved.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think you could look at any modern tragedy from the Marchioness, 9/11, Kings Cross, Valley Parade, Hillsborough etc and everyone affected by each disaster would want as much information to get closure as possible. Sadly it seems Hillsborough has been shrouded in deceit, finger pointing scare mongering, arguably corruption and definitely lies by both the press and the people in charge. If this new investigation opens old wounds for families involved but ultimately lays to rest the ghosts then surely it has to be the right thing to do

 

[Shaunmg]

I digress slightly but on the same theme. A lot of good came from the Taylor report, shutting the gate after the horse had bolted, I know. Improved ground safety and all seater stadiums for example.

I rarely go to the Liverpool games now, mainly because of ticketing and I can’t be bothered with the traffic and parking issues. I was a kop season ticket holder well before Hillsborough. I had many a bad experience standing on the kop; a few times I thought I was going to get crushed. To the extent that when a goal was scored the surge forward sometimes, momentarily I couldn’t breathe.

Seeing people faint was common. The only way to get them out was to pass them down overhead to the waiting medics at pitch side. When you arrived up to half an hour before the kick off, the kop would already be heaving. The only way to get in would be to push and force your way through the grounded kop, barging through was accepted and common practice, all the kopites accepted it as the norm. Going for a pee during the game or at half time, just forget it, no way was it possible.

Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen. We learned nothing from Ibrox. I wasn’t there but I know kopites would have been barging their way into those central pens. Not their fault, this was what they had to do week in and week out at Anfield.

I get annoyed when I hear the call for a return to safe standing stadiums. As the Hillsborough families will tell you there is no such thing. In particular it annoys me to see today’s kopites refusing to sit in the seat they are provided with. They of all people should have learned the lesson