Itv leaders debate.

[SocketRocket]

As the poll didn't ask why, then I couldn't do anything but speculate. To state opinion as fact - as you have done - is either simply invalid, an act of faith or plain B/S. It would be fine if you added 'I believe' or even 'I'm certain', but that's not what you did!

It's not for me to prove otherwise, it's for you - stating an opinion as fact - to prove your assertion, or admit it's only your opinion or is b/s!

I'm getting a little sick and tired with your continued cutting comments at just about every post I make, actually it's starting to seem a bit weird now. I have stated as a fact that UKIPs poll ratings have increased from around 3% in 2010 to around 15% at present. I have given the reasons I believe that has happened, you can take that as my opinion, B/S or what ever, I really don't care what you believe.

 

[SocketRocket]

The By Elections could easily be a false dawn with both winners being the MP of that area for a good period before they deflected

When they win a seat from scratch then it's possibly a bit more of a sign towards a shift of momentum

Like they did when they won the Euro Elections?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Like they did when they won the Euro Elections?

How many MP's did they gain for that which will enable them to effect UK politics

 

[MegaSteve]

Believe UKIP will do well in the areas where the main party's have gone ostrich on the 'concerns' of 'local' people... Politicians should make more of an effort to listen to the electorate... NOT just at election time and even then they forget what they heard in too short a time,,,

 

[Foxholer]

I'm getting a little sick and tired with your continued cutting comments at just about every post I make, actually it's starting to seem a bit weird now. I have stated as a fact that UKIPs poll ratings have increased from around 3% in 2010 to around 15% at present. I have given the reasons I believe that has happened, you can take that as my opinion, B/S or what ever, I really don't care what you believe.

So you are getting 'sick and tired' of being asked to provide evidence for stating as fact, you opinion! I suggest you provide some evidence to back up you 'facts' then! Surely that's not too much to ask?

I'm not disputing their rise in the poll ratings. I've even posted my own opinion as to why that is!

No! You stated as fact your opinion as to why their poll ratings have improved! It's only now that you have used the 'I believe' phrase!

As I posted, I have no issue when you use that phrase, but when you simply make a statement as fact, there needs to be evidence - which you haven't produced - or anyone should be entitled to challenge it, by either asking for evidence or calling it B/S!

In future, try applying the 'is evidence needed' test!

 

[SocketRocket]

So you are getting 'sick and tired' of being asked to provide evidence for stating as fact, you opinion! I suggest you provide some evidence to back up you 'facts' then! Surely that's not too much to ask?

I'm not disputing their rise in the poll ratings. I've even posted my own opinion as to why that is!

No! You stated as fact your opinion as to why their poll ratings have improved! It's only now that you have used the 'I believe' phrase!

As I posted, I have no issue when you use that phrase, but when you simply make a statement as fact, there needs to be evidence - which you haven't produced - or anyone should be entitled to challenge it, by either asking for evidence or calling it B/S!

In future, try applying the 'is evidence needed' test!

I base my opinions on what I perceive to be facts. You may disagree with what I perceive to be a fact but that's your problem not mine and to be frank. I don't give a damn!

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I base my opinions on what I perceive to be facts. You may disagree with what I perceive to be a fact but that's your problem not mine and to be frank. I don't give a damn!

Just to dive in here, you can't perceive something to be fact. It either is, or is not a fact. If you perceive something, then it becomes an opinion, and you can't try and make out it's fact.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I base my opinions on what I perceive to be facts. You may disagree with what I perceive to be a fact but that's your problem not mine and to be frank. I don't give a damn!

To perceive something then it's an opinion not fact

A fact is the rise in support on the polls for support for UKIP

Reasons for that rise is based on opinion

 

[MegaSteve]

Vast majority will cast their vote based on opinion rather than fact...

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Vast majority will cast their vote based on opinion rather than fact...

Noone is disagreeing with that. Still doesn't go around saying XXXXX is fact, if it's an opinion.

 

[SocketRocket]

To perceive something then it's an opinion not fact

A fact is the rise in support on the polls for support for UKIP

Reasons for that rise is based on opinion

The reasons for those increased polls are factual things not opinions. Eg: peoples concerns with immigration levels and their discontent with the EU. These are real concerns and factual.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

The reasons for those increased polls are factual things not opinions. Eg: peoples concerns with immigration levels and their discontent with the EU. These are real concerns and factual.

It's like you're completely missing this.

You believe, they are factual things. Unless the poll also asked why the UKIP support increased, then you cannot state as fact why it is!

EDIT: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factual may help

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The reasons for those increased polls are factual things not opinions. Eg: peoples concerns with immigration levels and their discontent with the EU. These are real concerns and factual.

Is there somewhere that shows in a poll the reason for the increase or somewhere that shows everyones reason for moving support to UKIP ? or is it your opinion that they are the reason ?

 

[Hobbit]

It's like you're completely missing this.

You believe, they are factual things. Unless the poll also asked why the UKIP support increased, then you cannot state as fact why it is!

EDIT: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factual may help

Is there somewhere that shows in a poll the reason for the increase or somewhere that shows everyones reason for moving support to UKIP ? or is it your opinion that they are the reason ?

Playing Devil's Advocate, if UKIP's main thrusts are immigration and the EU, and their ratings have gone up....... I'm inclined to say Socket isn't too far from the truth. Let's face it, you could hardly say their ratings have gone up because they want to have an open door policy and an increase in benefits...

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Playing Devil's Advocate, if UKIP's main thrusts are immigration and the EU, and their ratings have gone up....... I'm inclined to say Socket isn't too far from the truth. Let's face it, you could hardly say their ratings have gone up because they want to have an open door policy and an increase in benefits...

Would have to agree. Socket's questioners have previously, I believe, accused UKIP (with some justification) of having no policies other than those on immigration and the EU.

That being so, it is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that these might not be the reasons for their increased standing in the polls.

Sorry Phil but you can't have it both ways.

 

[jp5]

Is there somewhere that shows in a poll the reason for the increase or somewhere that shows everyones reason for moving support to UKIP ? or is it your opinion that they are the reason ?

With 90% of UKIP followers claiming that immigration has had a negative effect on the country, that may suggest something about the reasons they have increased in popularity.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Would have to agree. Socket's questioners have previously, I believe, accused UKIP (with some justification) of having no policies other than those on immigration and the EU.

That being so, it is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that these might not be the reasons for their increased standing in the polls.

Sorry Phil but you can't have it both ways.

I wasn't suggesting they might not be the reasons - they may well be but factually we don't know it's all opinions

The point was that things were being posted as if they were facts when it's clear they are opinions

The swell of support for UKIP I have no doubt is based around immigration but that's just an opinion as opposed to it being factual

 

[Hobbit]

I wasn't suggesting they might not be the reasons - they may well be but factually we don't know it's all opinions

The point was that things were being posted as if they were facts when it's clear they are opinions

The swell of support for UKIP I have no doubt is based around immigration but that's just an opinion as opposed to it being factual

Hair splitting Phil, and you know it. Why else would a party with basically one or two policies show a gain in the polls.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I wasn't suggesting they might not be the reasons - they may well be but factually we don't know it's all opinions

The point was that things were being posted as if they were facts when it's clear they are opinions

The swell of support for UKIP I have no doubt is based around immigration but that's just an opinion as opposed to it being factual

But then we are reducing this to a navel-gazing exercise of arguing over the semantic difference between "a fact" and something that we can all be pretty certain of.

Hands up all those who don't believe the growth in support for UKIP is not as a result of their policies on immigration and the EU.

Don't expect there are too many hands in the air right now.

 

[MegaSteve]

Think if you are voting UKIP you are not going to be too fussed as to whether they have a full manifesto or not... All you'll want is for them to be a thorn in the side of government which is, in reality, all they'll be hoping for themselves...