Is this a breach?

[duncan mackie]

I fail to see how a suggestion that the correct order of play (according to the rules) be adhered to, can be construed as advice in any way.

Definitely no breach.

I'm with you (and rulefan)

A is simply recognising that in getting B to play first he is denying him the opportunity to observe his putt and suggesting that he's happy for B to wait for him to get on with it.

I think 8-1/16 is a red herring; it set's out to explain the difference between information on the rules and advice - "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable". It would be more relevant if it was C who had suggested to B that he wait for A so that he can get the line on the putt. In that case it would be a question of the wording and intention as to whether C was giving advice eg If I was you I would wait for A because he will be giving you an excellent read on that putt........or.......you are aware that you are entitled to wait for A as it's his turn to play.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Surely 14-2b doesn't apply as they are Fellow Competitors.

Good point! Obviously it would be poor etiquette rather than a breach.

Having read the other replies I do tend to agree that there's no breach here. But also agree that something about the situation "sounds wrong" but of course that doesn't actually mean it is wrong.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I still struggle to see how FC A is not offering to give advice and FC B has accepted it.

For instance - both A and B have identical putts with what looks a big break - but it is not at all obvious to both how much the ball will break. FC A tells FC B to watch his putt and then deliberately putts along the less likely but possible line (without saying that that was what he was doing but it was obvious that it was what he was doing). It is the wrong line. By his words (in drawing attention of FC B to his putt) surely FC A has advised FC B.

 

[bladeplayer]

I still struggle to see how FC A is not offering to give advice and FC B has accepted it.

For instance - both A and B have identical putts with what looks a big break - but it is not at all obvious to both how much the ball will break. FC A tells FC B to watch his putt and then deliberately putts along the less likely but possible line (without saying that that was what he was doing but it was obvious that it was what he was doing). It is the wrong line. By his words (in drawing attention of FC B to his putt) surely FC A has advised FC B.

This is the same as i was thinking , if nobody said anything ok all grand , the min the conversation took place , IMO it could influence the way the player played his next shot , therefore breaking the rules ..

 

[Tommo21]

A then shouts across, "unless you want me to just go first to help you with the line?".

FC B steps away and say's "actually yeah, that'll be good thanks".

My reading.......

He was offering even more than advice, he was offering help and getting the okay from the other player.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is the same as i was thinking , if nobody said anything ok all grand , the min the conversation took place , IMO it could influence the way the player played his next shot , therefore breaking the rules ..

Indeed

 

[Colin L]

Some suggestions:

Player A did not say anything by way of suggestion or counsel which could determine B's next shot. What could help B with his next shot is watching A's putt - which he could legitimately do anyway. A is simply checking, as soon as he realises his suggestion that B play first could deny him that opportunity, whether B wants that chance. Simple thoughtfulness on his part, I would say.

The line that A's putt takes will be a matter of public information. It can be observed by anyone, as happens many times a day throughout the world as one player gains information from another's putt.

B takes this chance and lets A putt first. He has not asked for any advice contrary to Rule 8-1b.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Some suggestions:

Player A did not say anything by way of suggestion or counsel which could determine B's next shot. What could help B with his next shot is watching A's putt - which he could legitimately do anyway. A is simply checking, as soon as he realises his suggestion that B play first could deny him that opportunity, whether B wants that chance. Simple thoughtfulness on his part, I would say.

The line that A's putt takes will be a matter of public information. It can be observed by anyone, as happens many times a day throughout the world as one player gains information from another's putt.

B takes this chance and lets A putt first. He has not asked for any advice contrary to Rule 8-1b.

But I can see scenarios where B does not realise that he can learn from 'A's putt - and so is not paying much or any attention. 'A' knows the greens well - 'B' doesn't know the greens at all. 'A' knows that things ain't as they seem on first look. Tells 'B' to watch his putt. 'B' pays attention, watches and learns.

 

[TheJezster]

The rules experts have told us it's not a breach so why are we still debating?

It's not giving advice at all? It's asking a question and it is that persons turn too. It does seem that sometimes there are people who actually WANT to find things wrong with some things. Could you imagaine someone actually calling someone on that?

 

[Tommo21]

The rules experts have told us it's not a breach so why are we still debating?

It's not giving advice at all? It's asking a question and it is that persons turn too. It does seem that sometimes there are people who actually WANT to find things wrong with some things. Could you imagaine someone actually calling someone on that?

That'll be that then........Forum...debate...opinion.

 

[bladeplayer]

That'll be that then........Forum...debate...opinion.

Lock it down .. Nothing to see here ,

 

[MashieNiblick]

I'm with you (and rulefan)

A is simply recognising that in getting B to play first he is denying him the opportunity to observe his putt and suggesting that he's happy for B to wait for him to get on with it.

I think 8-1/16 is a red herring; it set's out to explain the difference between information on the rules and advice - "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable". It would be more relevant if it was C who had suggested to B that he wait for A so that he can get the line on the putt. In that case it would be a question of the wording and intention as to whether C was giving advice eg If I was you I would wait for A because he will be giving you an excellent read on that putt........or.......you are aware that you are entitled to wait for A as it's his turn to play.

Thanks Duncan, that's helpful.