Is this a breach?

[woody69]

Was playing in a comp yesterday and on our 14th green my two FC's had a very tricky 20 ft downhill putt as they had both hit out of a greenside bunker and ended up more or less on the same part of the green.

FC B was playing well and had a chance of the pot. FC A (and myself) were having a stinker and had no chance... Anyway, FC A was furthest from the hole by half a foot or so and technically the next person to take his putt. However, he was busy raking the bunker. He shouted to FC B to just go ahead if he was ready, as he was getting out the bunker and walking to his bag to get his putter. However, as FC B lined up his putt, A then shouts across, "unless you want me to just go first to help you with the line?".

FC B steps away and say's "actually yeah, that'll be good thanks".

They weren't mates or anything, just FC A wanted to help out FC B as he was having a good round, but I thought he potentially offering up some advice because he had verbalised it? However, saying that if he hadn't been delayed getting out the bunker and ready to take his putt, A would have hit his first anyway and shown B the line/break anyway.

So were any rules broken?

For the record, he didn't hole the putt and had a bit of a mare a couple of holes later so finished out the money and 4th (not that it's important to the story!)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

FC A gets two shot penalty for offering advice. Rule 8-2. And I think that FC B, given his 'that'd be good' acceptance, also gets two shot penalty for seeking advice. If FC B had said nothing he would not have been penalised. FC A would still be penalised.

 

[woody69]

FC A gets two shot penalty for offering advice. Rule 8-2. And I think that FC B, given his 'that'd be good' acceptance, also gets two shot penalty for seeking advice. If FC B had said nothing he would not have been penalised. FC A would still be penalised.

Has he actually given advice yet though, or does that only happen when he actually takes his putt, whilst say, "look it breaks left to right"

 

[North Mimms]

When A suggested that B go ahead and putt (to save time), B should have just said, "I'll wait, thanks"
Same result, no possible breach

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Has he actually given advice yet though, or does that only happen when he actually takes his putt, whilst say, "look it breaks left to right"

In my mind it's clear that FC A has 'offered' advice.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I'm not convinced on this one. Providing Player B doesn't stand behind etc the fact that Player A is going first is always going to help Player B. It's a fact and I'm not sure saying that "I'll go first to help you" would constitute advice under the rule especially as that was the right order anyway. Question is I suppose, once Player B decided to go first does the fact that he reconsidered after being prompted mean that his method of play etc has been influenced rather than just the order of play?

 

[Colin L]

Edit: Ignore all this. As pointed out below, I misread whose turn it was to play.

You're looking at the wrong rule. Take a look at Rule 10-2c regarding playing out of turn by agreement in order to gain an advantage (my bold type):

If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified.

 

[woody69]

You're looking at the wrong rule. Take a look at Rule 10-2c regarding playing out of turn by agreement in order to gain an advantage (my bold type):

If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified.

They weren't playing out of turn to get an advantage though. FC A was right to go first, as he was furthest from the hole. He just said that B could go ahead as he wasn't ready, which B said "OK". A however then said, unless you want me to give you the line, to which B said, "Oh yeah, if you don't mind, we're in no rush".

 

[bladeplayer]

You're looking at the wrong rule. Take a look at Rule 10-2c regarding playing out of turn by agreement in order to gain an advantage (my bold type):

If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified.

They didnt actually play out of turn tho did they ?

A was furthest and was due to play , told B to play away unless he wanted a line , B agreed ..

If as North Mimms said B said nah it ok i will wait , thats fine ..

"to help you with your line " is advice IMO so 2 shot pen , accepting advice , Is that a pen ?

If reported & due soley to the verbal agreement id say both should be DQ , despite the fact WITHOUT the verbal agreement they both played in accordance to the rules

 

[Colin L]

Thanks. I misread whose turn it was to play and have edited the miscreant post.

 

[bladeplayer]

Thanks. I misread whose turn it was to play and have edited the miscreant post.

Colin is verbaly accepting the offer "unless you want to wait & i will show you a line " a breach in this case ?

Even tho they were playing in correct order

 

[rosecott]

I'm not convinced on this one. Providing Player B doesn't stand behind etc the fact that Player A is going first is always going to help Player B. It's a fact and I'm not sure saying that "I'll go first to help you" would constitute advice under the rule especially as that was the right order anyway. Question is I suppose, once Player B decided to go first does the fact that he reconsidered after being prompted mean that his method of play etc has been influenced rather than just the order of play?

Surely 14-2b doesn't apply as they are Fellow Competitors.

 

[bladeplayer]

I'm not convinced on this one. Providing Player B doesn't stand behind etc the fact that Player A is going first is always going to help Player B. It's a fact and I'm not sure saying that "I'll go first to help you" would constitute advice under the rule especially as that was the right order anyway. Question is I suppose, once Player B decided to go first does the fact that he reconsidered after being prompted mean that his method of play etc has been influenced rather than just the order of play?

Is this a rule in singles ? etiquette rather than a rule is it not ?

Is a rule in 4ball/foresomes , bit i think its often thought of as the other way around


I await to be corrected

Apologies Rosecott should have read your reply first

 

[backwoodsman]

I can't see that agreeing to do what should be done - ie play in the correct order - can constitute advice. Not even with the statement of "to help with the line" being made, as playing in the correct order would obviously help with the line and saying so is merely statement of fact.

 

[Ethan]

I don't see the breach. Agreeing not to bend the rule of order of play so that one player gains possible benefit (assuming he conducts himself within the rules) from that proper order of play can't be a penalty.

 

[Crow]

I see it as a breach, an order of play was proposed and agreed, but was then changed solely for one player to gain an advantage.

I don't know where it would come in the rules but I'd go as far as a DQ.

 

[rulefan]

So were any rules broken?

I can't see any.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting one.

The issue as I see it is whether, A and B having agreed to play out of turn in order to speed up play (no breach,), and B being happy to do so, A's suggestion that in fact B wait so that he could see A putt constituted advice in that it influenced or might influence B's subsequent play of the hole i.e. deciding to wait for A to putt, rather than play.

I'm tending to think it could be construed that way.

 

[doublebogey7]

Interesting one.

The issue as I see it is whether, A and B having agreed to play out of turn in order to speed up play (no breach,), and B being happy to do so, A's suggestion that in fact B wait so that he could see A putt constituted advice in that it influenced or might influence B's subsequent play of the hole i.e. deciding to wait for A to putt, rather than play.

I'm tending to think it could be construed that way.

I fail to see how a suggestion that the correct order of play (according to the rules) be adhered to, can be construed as advice in any way.

Definitely no breach.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I fail to see how a suggestion that the correct order of play (according to the rules) be adhered to, can be construed as advice in any way.

Definitely no breach.

I agree it feels very counter intuitive, it's just that having, within the Rules, agreed to play out of turn, B then changes (or might change his mind) because A points out it might be advantageous for B to let A play first after all.

I had a look at Decision 8-1/16 - Suggesting to Competitor That He Declare His Ball Unplayable in which suggesting to someone to declare their ball unplayable is deemed to be a breach. So my thinking is that maybe suggesting to someone that playing in a particular order may be advantageous may also be a breach.

Decision is here

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=DEC2A60B-B2E3-4A26-ABDE-48D78103FA4D