Is it possible for Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months?

[TheClaw]

I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html

With an author named DR Shanks I don't think we should take any notice.

 

[Simbo]

IMO you need to do totally the opposite. You are new to golf and all playing will end up doing is getting you to ingrain bad habits into your game. Work hard on the practice ground and get all the fundamentals correct or you might just regret it.

There are no negatives to what you are trying at all as long as you get some good coaching and practice along the way. Chances are if you do have any ability for this game you will probably end up as a single figure handicapper anyway.

For the long term I agree, I see where you're coming from but ingraining a good swing, developing good course strategy and having good mental strength takes time, something he doesn't have a lot of, and I don't think a year is long enough to ingrain these traits. Playing over and over and over again will teach you how to get the ball in the hole more than the range will. Doesn't matter if you play with a big hook or a daisy cutting slice as long as you can get it to repeat.
Tbh I think a challenge like this for a beginner could totally ruin the game for them.

 

[Rooter]

one thing i didnt ask, are you married (partner, whatever) do you have any kids?

The above will be a huge factor, your mrs may be behind your idea now, wait till she hasnt seen you all week due to work and practice, and then you go for 36 holes on a saturday...

 

[CMAC]

one thing i didnt ask, are you married (partner, whatever) do you have any kids?

The above will be a huge factor, your mrs may be behind your idea now, wait till she hasnt seen you all week due to work and practice, and then you go for 36 holes on a saturday...

post number #4

do pay attention young Rooter or you'll have to see master after prep

 

[Jimbooo]

Your handicapper golf argument is just far too simplistic. There's so many variables that go into making us who we are and what we're capable of and many of these just won't be obvious on the surface to the onlooker.

Perhaps the one that improved more quickly played rounders every night when they were a kid and developed the motion which is just a golf swing on a single horizontal plane. Meanwhile the other guy stayed in playing video games every night. These facts won't be obvious though and people will just say 'talent' which for me is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.

So genetics doesn't have anything to do with it? Are we all born equal and its only external influences that decide how good we are at something?

 

[Rooter]

post number #4

do pay attention young Rooter or you'll have to see master after prep

Apologies sir. will write 100 lines.

Well i will throw a curve ball then, this will all go tits up (literally) when a burd gets involved...

 

[Birchy]

Your handicapper golf argument is just far too simplistic. There's so many variables that go into making us who we are and what we're capable of and many of these just won't be obvious on the surface to the onlooker.

Perhaps the one that improved more quickly played rounders every night when they were a kid and developed the motion which is just a golf swing on a single horizontal plane. Meanwhile the other guy stayed in playing video games every night. These facts won't be obvious though and people will just say 'talent' which for me is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.

So you think everybody has an equal chance of being a scratch golfer for example?

Some people are just better than others at things full stop and you pretty deluded to think otherwise imo.

I know people who have sort of grown up playing sport together and done pretty similar hobbies all through their lives. One example is a lad I know playing off 2 and his mate is off 19. They both lived on the same street and played for the same football team and did the same hobbies for donkeys years. Now they play golf together and there is quite a gap in their ability.

Unless the guy off 2 has been practicing in his sleep that points to him having more natural ability than the other guy imo. There isn't really much else it can be imo.

Theres plenty other examples of people with very similar backgrounds having very different skill levels.

 

[MadAdey]

For the long term I agree, I see where you're coming from but ingraining a good swing, developing good course strategy and having good mental strength takes time, something he doesn't have a lot of, and I don't think a year is long enough to ingrain these traits. Playing over and over and over again will teach you how to get the ball in the hole more than the range will. Doesn't matter if you play with a big hook or a daisy cutting slice as long as you can get it to repeat.
Tbh I think a challenge like this for a beginner could totally ruin the game for them.

IT is like I said in that post:

There are no negatives to what you are trying at all as long as you get some good coaching and practice along the way. Chances are if you do have any ability for this game you will probably end up as a single figure handicapper anyway.

If he does it properly and learns all the fundamentals of the game it is not going to hurt him. But just learning to get it round will ruin his game in the long run. If one of the more established golfers on the forum like myself or many others I can think of started on this journey for the next year then I think we could more or less end up as a scratch golfer, as all most of us need to do is tidy our games up and get some good coaching and practicing in.

 

[Andr3w]

So you think everybody has an equal chance of being a scratch golfer for example?

Some people are just better than others at things full stop and you pretty deluded to think otherwise imo.

I know people who have sort of grown up playing sport together and done pretty similar hobbies all through their lives. One example is a lad I know playing off 2 and his mate is off 19. They both lived on the same street and played for the same football team and did the same hobbies for donkeys years. Now they play golf together and there is quite a gap in their ability.

Unless the guy off 2 has been practicing in his sleep that points to him having more natural ability than the other guy imo. There isn't really much else it can be imo.

Theres plenty other examples of people with very similar backgrounds having very different skill levels.

Unfortunately, these anecdotes are completely worthless unless all facts are put on the table. This is a question that requires rigorous research and scientific enquiry. Not just "2 blokes I know..."

Genetics certainly comes into it. A look at the physiques of golfers on tour suggest being tall and lithe is advantageous to being short and fat. But as for people coming out the womb with brains that are better able to adopt the neural pathways required to make golf swing motions - there is no evidence for this and the studies are showing that.

 

[Birchy]

Unfortunately, these anecdotes are completely worthless unless all facts are put on the table. This is a question that requires rigorous research and scientific enquiry. Not just "2 blokes I know..."

Genetics certainly comes into it. A look at the physiques of golfers on tour suggest being tall and lithe is advantageous to being short and fat. But as for people coming out the womb with brains that are better able to adopt the neural pathways required to make golf swing motions - there is no evidence for this and the studies are showing that.

So you only believe things that are researched and scientifically proven? That must be a right laugh.

 

[MadAdey]

Andr3w, as much as I respect other peoples opinions and everyone has a right to express them I just think all of this "if you want it bad enough you will get it" is a load of old B@@@@@. Answer me these questions please:

Why is there differing levels of professional sportsmen?
Why at any of the major golfing events there are favorites and others who will be lucky to make the cut?
If all it takes is good coaching and dedication then I think anyone on here with a young child should sell up everything and spend it on top coaching, as that shild will then by the time they are 18 be making millions of pounds a year on the tour, would you not agree?

 

[Andr3w]

Andr3w, as much as I respect other peoples opinions and everyone has a right to express them I just think all of this "if you want it bad enough you will get it" is a load of old B@@@@@. Answer me these questions please:

Why is there differing levels of professional sportsmen?
Why at any of the major golfing events there are favorites and others who will be lucky to make the cut?
If all it takes is good coaching and dedication then I think anyone on here with a young child should sell up everything and spend it on top coaching, as that shild will then by the time they are 18 be making millions of pounds a year on the tour, would you not agree?

I completely agree with the bolded comment above.

The people that reach the very top are lucky beneficiaries of what is known as the multiplier effect. Basically everything went right for them in their development and it multiplies through. They are the result of many successful heads in a row tossing a coin if you like. The ones that didn't make it maybe had a tail or 2 at some point in their development e.g. a promising footballer that broke a leg at a key stage in their development or fell in with the wrong coaches.

Look at the research done into the birthdays of NHL players. They all fall at a very similar time near the cut off for being drafted i.e. because they were the oldest and hence biggest in the age group they will have appeared to have more talent and hence received more attention from the coaches. It's these little differences that count.

Take Andy Murray, his first successful coin toss was being born to a renowned tennis coach and huge driver and motivator. Then there is having a brother to practise with who was also interested in it. Then if his family hadn't been able to make the sacrifices to send him to Spain he'd be washed up in the lower rankings right now and people would watch him get horsed at Wimbledon and deride him for his lack of 'natural talent'.

 

[Jimbooo]

Unfortunately, these anecdotes are completely worthless unless all facts are put on the table. This is a question that requires rigorous research and scientific enquiry. Not just "2 blokes I know..."

Genetics certainly comes into it. A look at the physiques of golfers on tour suggest being tall and lithe is advantageous to being short and fat. But as for people coming out the womb with brains that are better able to adopt the neural pathways required to make golf swing motions - there is no evidence for this and the studies are showing that.

OK, but I'm not just talking golf. I've read Bounce and the Talent Code, and whilst I agree that hours of good practice can eventually make you a master at an activity, I believe that there's no getting away from the fact that some people just pick stuff up quicker than others (regardless their background). It's like the kid at school who just seems to take to almost any sport better than others. In a lot of cases, if you're good at one sport requiring any sort of hand-eye coordination (or foot-eye, etc), then you'll be good at most others. Surely that kid hasn't unknowingly practised the skills needed for all those sports?

My son's 5-year old friend is football mad. He practically does nothing else but that. My son never really plays football, never has, and hasn't really any interest in it... yet it is plain to see that he can "naturally" control a football better than his football-addicted friend - who clearly hasn't got "it".

 

[MadAdey]

Take Andy Murray, his first successful coin toss was being born to a renowned tennis coach and huge driver and motivator. Then there is having a brother to practise with who was also interested in it. .

But surely going on what you are saying then his brother should be just as good as he is. As you said his brother plays tennis too, but is not as good as him. Yet, they would have recieved exactly the same level of coaching as it was their mum.

So explain to me why there is such a difference in their abilities?

 

[Andr3w]

But surely going on what you are saying then his brother should be just as good as he is. As you said his brother plays tennis too, but is not as good as him. Yet, they would have recieved exactly the same level of coaching as it was their mum.

So explain to me why there is such a difference in their abilities?

I thought you might raise this. The answer is simple, life is complicated. None of us, even if we are brothers, are subject to the same millions of perceptions and experiences that define who we become.

 

[CMAC]

OK, but I'm not just talking golf. I've read Bounce and the Talent Code, and whilst I agree that hours of good practice can eventually make you a master at an activity, I believe that there's no getting away from the fact that some people just pick stuff up quicker than others (regardless their background). It's like the kid at school who just seems to take to almost any sport better than others. In a lot of cases, if you're good at one sport requiring any sort of hand-eye coordination (or foot-eye, etc), then you'll be good at most others. Surely that kid hasn't unknowingly practised the skills needed for all those sports?

My son's 5-year old friend is football mad. He practically does nothing else but that. My son never really plays football, never has, and hasn't really any interest in it... yet it is plain to see that he can "naturally" control a football better than his football-addicted friend - who clearly hasn't got "it".

better, not master

 

[Stuey01]

I thought you might raise this. The answer is simple, life is complicated. None of us, even if we are brothers, are subject to the same millions of perceptions and experiences that define who we become.

So basically what you're saying is that it is impossible to argue against your position because, you know, it's just sooo complicated.

 

[Andr3w]

So basically what you're saying is that it is impossible to argue against your position because, you know, it's just sooo complicated.

It's an argument from ignorance and pre-conceived ideas that is being thrown around though. It's really very similar to religion.

I don't know how the universe could have got here. Must be God.
I don't know why he's better than me. Must be natural talent.

 

[Andr3w]

In the case of the Murray brothers perhaps it's just a case of different personalities. Jamie seems a lot more laid back while Andy has an almost psychopathic determination and competitiveness and hates losing. It's easy to imagine that he trained a lot harder than Jamie did.

 

[Jimbooo]

In the case of the Murray brothers perhaps it's just a case of different personalities. Jamie seems a lot more laid back while Andy has an almost psychopathic determination and competitiveness and hates losing. It's easy to imagine that he trained a lot harder than Jamie did.

...or maybe he just found it easier.