Is it possible for Mr Average to become a scratch golfer in just 12 months?

[Snelly]

Andrew & Snelly, if we're stripping this down to the bare bones and saying that natural Talent/ Ability doesn't exist Both Physically and Mentally...
Would we then be saying that its a totally level playing field for every individual from the moment we're born? and what happens from then on determines the outcome?

I am not saying that no. I am saying that physiology and genetics play a part in your natural affinity to succeed in sport but that this does not equate to natural talent and is actually a relatively small factor.

What I am saying, is that for every exceptional exponent of a sport: Ayrton Senna, Lionel Messi, Tiger Woods etc, when you look at how their lives panned out from the moment they took up their chosen pursuit, you can clearly see that they were afforded unique circumstances that honed their skills to almost unprecedented levels. Furthermore, their contemporaries, without being given these unique opportunities, could not possibly get to their levels of excellence.

So in summary, yes, you need some natural affinity for sport and a decent blank canvas as a starting point but for the most part, opportunity and application are what create the best sports people.


For a much more erudite and better articulated explanation, please read Bounce by Matthew Syed.

 

[c1973]

I am not saying that no. I am saying that physiology and genetics play a part in your natural affinity to succeed in sport but that this does not equate to natural talent and is actually a relatively small factor.

What I am saying, is that for every exceptional exponent of a sport: Ayrton Senna, Lionel Messi, Tiger Woods etc, when you look at how their lives panned out from the moment they took up their chosen pursuit, you can clearly see that they were afforded unique circumstances that honed their skills to almost unprecedented levels. Furthermore, their contemporaries, without being given these unique opportunities, could not possibly get to their levels of excellence.

So in summary, yes, you need some natural affinity for sport and a decent blank canvas as a starting point but for the most part, opportunity and application are what create the best sports people.


For a much more erudite and better articulated explanation, please read Bounce by Matthew Syed.

Very true and an extremely well reasoned point.

 

[garyinderry]

somewhere along this debate it as shifted from talking about natural talent to becoming the pinnacle of the sport.


yes,these top sports stars have been afforded the best training but you can be dam sure they were naturals at their chosen sports. they worked hard to reach the very top.


all men are not created equal. if they were, sports would be very dull indeed!

 

[Andr3w]

somewhere along this debate it as shifted from talking about natural talent to becoming the pinnacle of the sport.


yes,these top sports stars have been afforded the best training but you can be dam sure they were naturals at their chosen sports. they worked hard to reach the very top.


all men are not created equal. if they were, sports would be very dull indeed!

How do you know they were naturals at their chosen sport?

What is you natural language? You appear to be very proficient at writing in English as we all do. Why...? Because we've all done it a heck of a lot. That's how you get really good at something and provide the illusion of being a natural at it.

People just cannot accept that some people are luckier, had more privileges and opportunities and frankly worked harder and sacrificed more than they could ever imagine. No, it's easier just to say they got magic cheat codes at birth. That seems easier to accept but is frankly an insult to what these people had to do to reach the top.

 

[garyinderry]

I can do quite difficult mathematical problems. they are just a set of rules that I must follow to come to a solution. solving these problems is fine. dealing with numbers does not come easily to me. it never has. some people have a predisposition to doing maths and working with numbers. they arrive at the answer a hell of a lot faster than I would. in fact, they may even find 2 or 3 ways of arriving at the answer. I will only find the one I have taught. they have a natural affinity with numbers. I sadly do not!


tiger woods could turn his hand to any sport. he is just stupidly good at golf!

 

[Andr3w]

I can do quite difficult mathematical problems. they are just a set of rules that I must follow to come to a solution. solving these problems is fine. dealing with numbers does not come easily to me. it never has. some people have a predisposition to doing maths and working with numbers. they arrive at the answer a hell of a lot faster than I would. in fact, they may even find 2 or 3 ways of arriving at the answer. I will only find the one I have taught. they have a natural affinity with numbers. I sadly do not!


tiger woods could turn his hand to any sport. he is just stupidly good at golf!

As we know, Tiger was swinging golf clubs since he was only about 18months old. Studies of the brains of elite violin players has shown that the size of the part of their brains that deals with fine finger control increases as competence increase. And, importantly, this effect is greater the younger they are. Tiger did not come out the womb with the neural connections to make golf swings, that is simply not how the human brain works. But they were ingrained very shortly after, and that is the difference.

 

[garyinderry]

As we know, Tiger was swinging golf clubs since he was only about 18months old. Studies of the brains of elite violin players has shown that the size of the part of their brains that deals with fine finger control increases as competence increase. And, importantly, this effect is greater the younger they are. Tiger did not come out the womb with the neural connections to make golf swings, that is simply not how the human brain works. But they were ingrained very shortly after, and that is the difference.

tiger wasn't the first to have a club in hand from an early age. he certainly wont be the last.

most kids in the UK have a ball to play with even before we know what to do with it. it doesn't mean we are going to turn into messi. nor does it guarantee that we will be even half decent at football.

 

[Andr3w]

tiger wasn't the first to have a club in hand from an early age. he certainly wont be the last.

most kids in the UK have a ball to play with even before we know what to do with it. it doesn't mean we are going to turn into messi. nor does it guarantee that we will be even half decent at football.

Those kids didn't have the same set of circumstances and opportunities Tiger had. They didn't have Earl Woods, an incredibly driven and strong-minded individual pushing him to the limit. Everything was setup for him and everything went right in his development. Tiger is the 25 reds in a row in the roulette table that appears to be a miracle but in reality with a large enough pool of population in the world, is just bound to happen eventually.

 

[garyinderry]

that doesn't take away from the fact that the young tiger could play the game, and play it well from an early age. I have no doubt he was one of, if not top pick in every sport he played at school.

you can see these types in every school up and down the country.

some people can draw, others sing, some count, others build, run fast etc. some people are just born to do it. they have certain something inside that you cant teach. it just comes to the fore with a little luck (in finding this thing) hard work, dedication and practice. sometimes it doesn't surface at all.

there are some very talented people sitting in boozers right now. they had the raw talent but it wasn't guided in the way you describe to get the best out of them. it doesn't take away from the fact they have talent.

 

[Andr3w]

that doesn't take away from the fact that the young tiger could play the game, and play it well from an early age. I have no doubt he was one of, if not top pick in every sport he played at school.

you can see these types in every school up and down the country.

some people can draw, others sing, some count, others build, run fast etc. some people are just born to do it. they have certain something inside that you cant teach. it just comes to the fore with a little luck (in finding this thing) hard work, dedication and practice. sometimes it doesn't surface at all.

there are some very talented people sitting in boozers right now. they had the raw talent but it wasn't guided in the way you describe to get the best out of them. it doesn't take away from the fact they have talent.

A lot of baseless assertions in there. How do you know people are 'born' to do something, rather than have it nurtured into them due to the environment they grew up in? Hunters in tribes in Africa are not 'born' to hunt any more than Tiger is born to play golf, they just learn to do it very well because they need to in order to survive.

Yes Tiger has a naturally athletic physique with fast-twitch muscles so he is going to be suited to sports in a way someone who is 5foot nothing and fat is not. However, we're talking about what is going on in the brain.

 

[garyinderry]

ok. what about people who thrive at things and do not come from these rich talent nurturing environments?

 

[garyinderry]

some people are wired differently. it cant be taught!

http://www.neatorama.com/2008/09/05/10-most-fascinating-savants-in-the-world/#!Skam6

 

[Andr3w]

Go to a tour event and watch the professionals practise. If you're like me you'll be struck by how much of a mental and physical grind it appears to be. It looks like what it is - work, a chore. Watch them meticulously measure out putts and then hit putt after putt after putt from all different parts of the greens. It all just looks anything but natural.

The tour is littered with examples of players who stopped practising as much, assuming they could make it on their 'talent' alone.

 

[Stuey01]

However, we're talking about what is going on in the brain.

You are. Are you sure everyone else is?

I don't think you can seperate the brain from the physical, because to be the best both are necessary. Perhaps the brain stuff is learned, I actually agree with you on that, but having the physical genetic advantages could easily be construed as natural talent.

 

[MadAdey]

Andr3w, did you miss my post at #119 or did you decide not to answer me as you had no argument for it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm sorry but this concept of needing to have "it" in order to achieve excellence is an old fashioned way of thinking and based on pre-conceived and ill-informed notions.

I could summarise many literature on this topic but take this academic piece for example which probably puts it better than I could:

http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/P335/shanks_expertise.html

Sorry but you still need a lot of natural ability to succeed in golf

I bet there are thousands of golfers out there that practise more than me ( zero hours for me ) and have more lessons than me ( zero lessons ) so they should have a better handicap than me ? Yes ?

 

[CMAC]

A lot of baseless assertions in there. How do you know people are 'born' to do something, rather than have it nurtured into them due to the environment they grew up in? Hunters in tribes in Africa are not 'born' to hunt any more than Tiger is born to play golf, they just learn to do it very well because they need to in order to survive.

Yes Tiger has a naturally athletic physique with fast-twitch muscles so he is going to be suited to sports in a way someone who is 5foot nothing and fat is not. However, we're talking about what is going on in the brain.

yes they are! man is a hunter gatherer, born to hunt to survive and procreate! the actual skills necessary for each situation or area are learned and developed.

Nature and nurture. You need the nature element and nurture what nature has provided.

 

[Jimbooo]

Andr3w...

You seem to have missed or ignored the post about the maths...

I have a friend who is amazing at mental arithmetic. He has come from a very poor single parent family and has not been taught anything outside of school - not exactly the ideal environment, yet he was miles better than all the other educated kids in his class. Spookily good. You ask him how he's so good and the answer is "I don't know, I've just always found it easy.".

You are saying that there is no such thing as natural talent, it's all a product of their upbringing etc. Sure, there is research that proves this in some cases... but not ALL cases... they cannot possibly. I read Bounce, and really enjoyed it, but what I took from it was that given the right circumstances and practice, virtually anyone can become awesome at any activity. That's fair enough and I don't dispute it. But to say that's the only reason people get good at things, is crazy imo.

 

[Andr3w]

yes they are! man is a hunter gatherer, born to hunt to survive and procreate! the actual skills necessary for each situation or area are learned and developed.

Nature and nurture. You need the nature element and nurture what nature has provided.

OK but the point was that they aren't born with the skills to fire poisonous darts at tree-dwelling animals with pin-point accuracy. It has to be learned and practised.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

OK but the point was that they aren't born with the skills to fire poisonous darts at tree-dwelling animals with pin-point accuracy. It has to be learned and practised.

Should someone who practises and has more lessons be better than someone who does neither ?