Is it in the penalty area?

[backwoodsman]

A question arising from a round played yesterday. A par 3 is played across a dry gully (which is a red penalty area). The apron & green are raised above the penalty area, and at the front edge, are supported by a wall made of boulders. The boundary of the penalty area is the top edge of the wall and is marked by red posts.

A ball is hit over the penalty area, lands on the very edge of the fringe, then rolls back & falls off the wall into the gully/penalty area. By fluke it bounces into a deep hole in the wall. The hole is deep enough that the ball comes to rest just "green-side " of the red marker posts above it. Is the ball in the penalty area? And how should one proceed?

 

[shagster]

A question arising from a round played yesterday. A par 3 is played across a dry gully (which is a red penalty area). The apron & green are raised above the penalty area, and at the front edge, are supported by a wall made of boulders. The boundary of the penalty area is the top edge of the wall and is marked by red posts.

A ball is hit over the penalty area, lands on the very edge of the fringe, then rolls back & falls off the wall into the gully/penalty area. By fluke it bounces into a deep hole in the wall. The hole is deep enough that the ball comes to rest just "green-side " of the red marker posts above it. Is the ball in the penalty area? And how should one proceed?

i would take a free drop above the ball as the ball is no longer in the penalty area as you have described
similar to rabbit hole in bunker

 

[rosecott]

i would take a free drop above the ball as the ball is no longer in the penalty area as you have described
similar to rabbit hole in bunker

The problem with that is that a rabbit hole in a bunker attracts free relief as the hole is an Abnormal Course Condition. I don't think a hole in the wall is an ACC.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Don't think it's a free drop unless it's designated via a local rule. Agree it's not in the penalty area but think it's a penalty drop as unplayable.

 

[rulefan]

The boundary of the penalty area is the top edge of the wall and is marked by red posts.

Is the wall itself in the penalty area?

 

[backwoodsman]

Is the wall itself in the penalty area?

Best answer I can give is "probably". Being made of boulders the wall is quite thick. And topped by soil & grass - which you could play from if you were daft enough to stand that close to the edge. At the point where the ball rolled over, the marker posts are as close to the edge of the drop as is possible to put them (inches at most). The face of the wall is angled, so the bottom of the outer face of wall projects well into the PA side of the markers, at centre height less so, and at the top barely so, if at all. But yes, all of the wall face is PA side of the PA face of the marker posts. However, the thickness of the construction means that some of the below ground parts of the wall will be gree side (ie non-PA side) of the posts - the more so the deeper down one goes.

Also it will be a matter of fact as to whether the ball actually lay PA side or green side of the markers. For purpose of this question, am saying it did.

 

[backwoodsman]

 

[rulefan]

As PAs extend vertically down it and you say the ball was greenside of the margin defining posts, would seem the ball was not in the PA. So free relief would be available as the wall is an IO (ACC).
Interference exists when any one of these is true:
The player’s ball touches or is in or on an Abnormal Course Condition.

As to whether it would be unreasonable to play because of something else, without seeing it I think it would be wrong to make a judgement from here.

Edit: Your diagram arrived as I was writing but it doesn't change my view.

 

[rulefan]

PS. Re 'unreasonable'.
The stroke doesn't need to be towards the hole.

 

[backwoodsman]

I think fair to say a stroke would have been unreasonable. Ball was only retrievable by reaching into hole with a putter to scoop it out. (But there was nothing else to make a shot unplayable - pretty tricky stance but not impossible)

If truth be known, it was probably borderline/debateable as to its precise location. At the time it was treated as being in the PA and relief taken accordingly - and in reality, it only occurred to us later that ball could have been "green side" of the markers.

 

[rulefan]

The fact it was in the wall gives relief. The 'unreasonable' aspect only relates to some other reason not associated with the wall. It may be that hitting sideways was entirely possible. A 'tricky' stance does not make a stroke unreasonable.

An example of unreasonable is a ball under a very low growing bush but the player is standing on a path. On the face of it he gets relief from the path BUT the ball is unplayable because of the bush.

 

[Barrie J]

In this situation, if the ball is not in the penalty area, the reference point and relief area must be in the general area. It could be that this is not possible - both the reference point and relief area could be in the penalty area. If that is the case, then unplayable relief is the only option.

 

[duncan mackie]

In this situation, if the ball is not in the penalty area, the reference point and relief area must be in the general area. It could be that this is not possible - both the reference point and relief area could be in the penalty area. If that is the case, then unplayable relief is the only option.

This is a little misleading.

If the ball is not in the penalty area the reference point and relief area are not going to be in it either.

If the ball is in the general area there will be a reference point in the general area - it could be a long way away but it will exist; there is no restriction on how far it actually is, only that it is the nearest available.

 

[rulie]

This is a little misleading.

If the ball is not in the penalty area the reference point and relief area are not going to be in it either.

If the ball is in the general area there will be a reference point in the general area - it could be a long way away but it will exist; there is no restriction on how far it actually is, only that it is the nearest available.

And the reference point must not be nearer the hole. Also recall that the permitted relief area could be significantly smaller than the one club-length semi-circle; it could be a small portion of that so long as the reference point is not in the penalty area.