Incorrect provisional ball

[jim8flog]

A player plays a 'provisional' when they were not allowed to take one. (Rule18.3)

Is this a wrong ball (6.3c)

or an incorrectly substituted ball (6.3b (3))

 

[rulefan]

A player plays a 'provisional' when they were not allowed to take one. (Rule18.3)

Is this a wrong ball (6.3c)

or an incorrectly substituted ball (6.3b (3))

The latter. See 18.1

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks.

 

[jim8flog]

What was the scenario?

A player played a 'provisional ball' when the original was not lost or out of bounds.

They 'may have hit' the wires crossing a fairway.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

A player played a 'provisional ball' when the original was not lost or out of bounds.

They 'may have hit' the wires crossing a fairway.

We have the same issue on one fairway. Our local rule is a "must replay the shot" so if KoVC rule applies you never get to play a provisional.

 

[rulefan]

So, genuine question guys, not expressing an opinion, but if you and the rest of the group "think" you've hit the wires, you want to do the right thing, what's the correct course of action?

Stroke play: Play 2 balls. 20.1c(3)
Match play: 20.1b

 

[rulefan]

Thanks.

Once again, I just want to stress I'm asking out of interest, not arguing ?, but in a real life situation how would playing 2 balls under 20.1c(3) be resolved?

I'm thinking that the only people who can say if a ball hit a wire are the players in the group, and they will be able to make that decision as soon as they reach the original ball.

If the player has hit a provisional, they could then immediately decide which ball the player should proceed with.

But if the player plays out the hole with 2 balls, when does it get decided whether his tee shot hit the wire? If it's immediately obvious, eg, a big scuff on the ball, isn't holing out with 2 balls just wasting time?

Repeat, question out of interest, not trying to argue ?

I'm afraid it's not their decision to make. Only Referees and the Committee can make decisions.

 

[Colin L]

Any evidence available such as a power outage in the entire neighbourhood.

I exaggerate, I suppose.

 

[jim8flog]

One of the problems we have is that if the ball is hit with a slight fade or push the wires are amongst trees and it would be very difficult to decide if the ball hit a tree or the wire just based upon ball position or marks on the ball.

We also state in our LR that a player is not allowed to play a provisional ball. The player involved clearly stated he was playing a provisional ball.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

So, genuine question guys, not expressing an opinion, but if you and the rest of the group "think" you've hit the wires, you want to do the right thing, what's the correct course of action?

Ultimately it's the players call - if their PP disagrees there is a problem but normally they will be limited to the "are you sure?" response.

Hence the KoVC test. Our wires cross a fairway but are in range at one end off the tee as they go behind trees. If you hear the sound of ball striking wood it could be the supporting pylon or a tree so unless you actually see it then you can't assume. The wires are easier to see and hear as they are in the open and make a distinctive noise.

Thus if you play 2 balls and ask the committee to make a decision I'm sure they would go through a similar logic tree to make their judgement.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm afraid it's not their decision to make. Only Referees and the Committee can make decisions.

Utter twaddle!
Referees and Committees make rulings! Those rulings are based on decisions made, rightly or wrongly, (and consequential action) by player(s)! Subsequent action, however might involve decisions based on those rulings.
After all, simply adding 'decided to' ahead of the action that a player took would not change the logic of his/her action, whether allowed under The Rules or not!

 

[rulefan]

Utter twaddle!
Referees and Committees make rulings! Those rulings are based on decisions made, rightly or wrongly, (and consequential action) by player(s)! Subsequent action, however might involve decisions based on those rulings.
After all, simply adding 'decided to' ahead of the action that a player took would not change the logic of his/her action, whether allowed under The Rules or not!

I was using the word decision in the sense that it is used in 'The Decisions on the Rules of Golf' and the way Traminator used it.

the act or process of deciding; determination, as of a question or doubt, by making a judgment:
a choice that you make about something after thinking about several possibilities:

In this case the committee would decide on whether or not the ball hit the wire, despite what the players thought at the time. The committee would then make a ruling on the effect on the player's score.

 

[Colin L]

If the wires are behind trees and it's an off line shot that is liable to go there and there are trees around which the ball might hit, why are you giving relief from the wires in the first place?

 

[robinthehood]

Utter twaddle!
Referees and Committees make rulings! Those rulings are based on decisions made, rightly or wrongly, (and consequential action) by player(s)! Subsequent action, however might involve decisions based on those rulings.
After all, simply adding 'decided to' ahead of the action that a player took would not change the logic of his/her action, whether allowed under The Rules or not!

What a truly embarrassing post. You need to take time to read threads ,rather than posting this nonsense.

 

[Ethan]

As an aside, in a PGA Tour event in the 70s, Jack Nicklaus hit a tee shot which hit overhead wires. Per the rule he replayed the shot from the same place on the tee and hit the wire again in pretty much the same place.

 

[Foxholer]

I was using the word decision in the sense that it is used in 'The Decisions on the Rules of Golf' and the way Traminator used it.
...

I'm certain that wasn't the case! But only Traminator can confirm/clarify.
Players make loads of (choice type) 'decisions' every round...the choice of club for any shot being an obvious one. Or even 'decisions' based on Decisions available in the document you refer to above!
So you cannot simply state that 'players cannot make decisions', at least not without specifying/clarifying which type (perhaps using a capital 'D' for the 'ruling' type!

 

[Foxholer]

As an aside, in a PGA Tour event in the 70s, Jack Nicklaus hit a tee shot which hit overhead wires. Per the rule he replayed the shot from the same place on the tee and hit the wire again in pretty much the same place.

Playing Silvermere many years ago, I did similar on one hole (7th? Last hole before crossing road outward) though not the same wire. Then hit a wire again 2 holes later!

 

[robinthehood]

As an aside, in a PGA Tour event in the 70s, Jack Nicklaus hit a tee shot which hit overhead wires. Per the rule he replayed the shot from the same place on the tee and hit the wire again in pretty much the same place.

I hit a tee shot in a matchplay comp that was sailing out of bounds and clipped the overhead wire on its way , my reload was smoked down the middle to my oppos annoyance. ??

 

[rulefan]

I'm certain that wasn't the case! But only Traminator can confirm/clarify.
Players make loads of (choice type) 'decisions' every round...the choice of club for any shot being an obvious one. Or even 'decisions' based on Decisions available in the document you refer to above!
So you cannot simply state that 'players cannot make decisions', at least not without specifying/clarifying which type (perhaps using a capital 'D' for the 'ruling' type!

I was referring to the specific case posed. I'm afraid it's not their decision to make .

Votes by the group are irrelevant. Only the player can decide on his action. He cannot decide if he was right or wrong. The committee or referee do that
Read post #10 again. That is what I was answering

 

[jim8flog]

If the wires are behind trees and it's an off line shot that is liable to go there and there are trees around which the ball might hit, why are you giving relief from the wires in the first place?

Because a large section of of the wires cross two fairways (one in each direction). There is a lot more of the wires directly across fairways and places of rough where there are no trees than there is in the trees.