Human rights...

[forefortheday]

Yes. They are / were enemies of the British state. Millions of our people have died fighting wars against them to prevent them holding power over us and others across the world. WE are the people who helped protect the world from these examples of the worst of mankind. We don't need the ECHR or anyone else for that matter to tell us right from wrong. WE, the British people have been the protectors of human rights the world over for centuries.

Try telling that to the people of India,Kenya etc etc.

Protecting human rights for centuries?? We were using concentration camps before Hitler!

 

[Foxholer]

Yes. They are / were enemies of the British state. Millions of our people have died fighting wars against them to prevent them holding power over us and others across the world. WE are the people who helped protect the world from these examples of the worst of mankind. We don't need the ECHR or anyone else for that matter to tell us right from wrong. WE, the British people have been the protectors of human rights the world over for centuries.

I think there's quite a few Afro-Americans descended from victims of that British 'protection'! Likewise, the rest of Africa, The Middle and Far East and the Indian sub-continent were beneficiaries of such 'protection' otherwise known as Imperialism!

Britain's motives, in the last few Centuries, can really be summarised by an obsession to protect its own interests in Global Trade - and little else imo!

So if you add 'when it has suited us' to the bold bit, I might agree

Britain invented the Concentration Camp. The Nazis, in a classic stereotype, merely made it efficient!

Nice spin though!

 

[stevie_r]

Yes. They are / were enemies of the British state. Millions of our people have died fighting wars against them to prevent them holding power over us and others across the world. WE are the people who helped protect the world from these examples of the worst of mankind. We don't need the ECHR or anyone else for that matter to tell us right from wrong. WE, the British people have been the protectors of human rights the world over for centuries.

You are absolutely barking mad, howling at the moon, mad

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I think we can officially class Sweeps last sentence as "refuted by many"

 

[FairwayDodger]

Yes. They are / were enemies of the British state. Millions of our people have died fighting wars against them to prevent them holding power over us and others across the world. WE are the people who helped protect the world from these examples of the worst of mankind. We don't need the ECHR or anyone else for that matter to tell us right from wrong. WE, the British people have been the protectors of human rights the world over for centuries.

Hmmm.... pretty sure Stalin was an ally.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The British people protectors of human rights the world over for centuries.
You have to be joking

Just this last full century alone, think on..........South Africa, India and Pakistan, Australia, Uganda, Kenya, Egypt for starters.

 

[Sweep]

You are absolutely barking mad, howling at the moon, mad

Errr, Hitler was German. Stalin was Russian and you want us to defer our belief in what is right and wrong to European Court of Human Rights? Listen, my father fought in Burma against the Japanese who were not at that time leading lights in the human rights lobby. Nobody thanked him for risking his life to save them and he never expected them to. Probably because his father before him fought the Germans in WW1 and nobody had thanked him. Millions of his fellow soldiers died doing the same, it was just that my dad was "lucky". So please, next time you are having a bad round of golf, think of that generation who weren't lucky enough to get to play golf, because many of them died for you and millions of others for your human rights. Please don't insult their memory by suggesting that everything Britain has done in the past was wrong. As I said before, we do at lot more right than most and certainly more than our European friends. It is you, the apologists for the world, who are barking mad. "Lets give up our sovereignty, because we can't handle all this responsibility". "Everybody else knows better than us". You need to grow some and quick. And you are right. Britain needs to start taking responsibilty for her own actions.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Please don't insult their memory by suggesting that everything Britain has done in the past was wrong.

I don't think anyone said this? Everyone just jumped on your high and mighty position that we are the global upholders of high moral standards, and have been for centuries. We were on the right side in the World Wars, and I for one am exceptionally grateful for all of the young men and women who made immeasurable sacrifices for that cause. We cannot forget though that there are just as many times that we have been on the wrong side, but unfortunately, we don't seem to learn too much about them in history classes....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your post seems to imply that you are surprised that the ECHR got it right for once. Or are you surprised that the UK courts got it right? Or just that everyone agreed?
In this case if we didn't have anything to do with the ECHR, she wouldn't have had a higher place of appeal. And the British court ruling would have applied. Just like it does now. The end result is the same, it would have just cost us a lot less. Just another fine example of why we should dump the ECHR in my opinion.

Surely the point is that she did have somewhere to go. After all the UK judiciary system got it wroing for her three years ago - why might they not get it wrong in respect of her compensation claim. I think that if I'd spent three years in jail for something I didn't do then I'd not be too confident in them.

 

[stevie_r]

Errr, Hitler was German. Stalin was Russian and you want us to defer our belief in what is right and wrong to European Court of Human Rights? Listen, my father fought in Burma against the Japanese who were not at that time leading lights in the human rights lobby. Nobody thanked him for risking his life to save them and he never expected them to. Probably because his father before him fought the Germans in WW1 and nobody had thanked him. Millions of his fellow soldiers died doing the same, it was just that my dad was "lucky". So please, next time you are having a bad round of golf, think of that generation who weren't lucky enough to get to play golf, because many of them died for you and millions of others for your human rights. Please don't insult their memory by suggesting that everything Britain has done in the past was wrong. As I said before, we do at lot more right than most and certainly more than our European friends. It is you, the apologists for the world, who are barking mad. "Lets give up our sovereignty, because we can't handle all this responsibility". "Everybody else knows better than us". You need to grow some and quick. And you are right. Britain needs to start taking responsibilty for her own actions.

Don't preach at me mate. Of the 22 years I spent in the Army fully 5 of those were spent on operations or in harms way if you like.

I have a wife who is 70% disabled as a result of service in war that Britain was involved in in 2003, Iraq, you might have heard of it, I think it was in the papers.

That war showed our government up for what it is, was, and always has been. The government deliberately misled the British public into why it was necessary to go to war; we went to war on a lie. David Kelly anyone? Truth of the matter was that it was always going to happen and when we couldn't find enough of a reason we went anyway; primarily to suck up the the good old U S of A.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

However, Britain gets it right far more than most and certainly more than the ECHR

Sweeping statement - and made on what basis.

We are a tolerant nation and our courts should decide matters based on the beliefs of OUR nations people

.

Tolerant - maybe - maybe not as much as we were

This makes the ECHR another example of undemocratically elected officials usurping properly elected people.

Don't remember voting for our judges

Remember, one of the main purposes of Parliament is to make and amend the laws of the land. It is wrong to ask us to elect our representatives and not have those representatives make the final decisions.

Oh I REALLY trust our governments to make law based upon strongly held and long standing principles that reflect those of the general public - not.

 

[Foxholer]

...Listen, my father fought in Burma against the Japanese who were not at that time leading lights in the human rights lobby. Nobody thanked him for risking his life to save them and he never expected them to. Please don't insult their memory by suggesting that everything Britain has done in the past was wrong. As I said before, we do at lot more right than most and certainly more than our European friends.

I too had a Father and several Uncles who served in WWII. That sort of argument is only relevant in that the entire Council for Europe was established to avoid that sort of mayhem subsequent to WWII!

It's not a case of doing a better job. It's a case of guaranteeing the basic rights and having some judicial ruling method. The Convention and ECtHR seems to be the best way to me! Anything else is simply Xenophobic and would actually adopt the same articles anyway. There are certainly a large number of 'non-European' states that are signatories to the CofEurope therefore ECtHR rulings.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I too had a Father and several Uncles who served in WWII. That sort of argument is only relevant in that the entire Council for Europe was established to avoid that sort of mayhem subsequent to WWII!

It's not a case of doing a better job. It's a case of guaranteeing the basic rights and having some judicial ruling method. The Convention and ECtHR seems to be the best way to me! Anything else is simply Xenophobic and would actually adopt the same articles anyway. There are certainly a large number of 'non-European' states that are signatories to the CofEurope therefore ECtHR rulings.

Countries - even the whiter than white UK - can make laws that may suit the party in government at the time and that may reflect the specific circumstances of the time. That does not necessarily make good law and surely it is good to have an independent body - like an ombudsman - to have a second look at judgements from a broader perspective.

 

[Foxholer]

Countries - even the whiter than white UK - can make laws that may suit the party in government at the time and that may reflect the specific circumstances of the time. That does not necessarily make good law and surely it is good to have an independent body - like an ombudsman - to have a second look at judgements from a broader perspective.

True. Would have been a much shorter, and possibly less interesting, thread if this had bee posted on Page 1!

And I'd amend 'good to have' to 'essential to have'!

 

[SocketRocket]

Countries - even the whiter than white UK - can make laws that may suit the party in government at the time and that may reflect the specific circumstances of the time. That does not necessarily make good law and surely it is good to have an independent body - like an ombudsman - to have a second look at judgements from a broader perspective.

That why we have the House of Lords. You really seem ill at ease with the UK, ever considered moving to somewhere where they have people in Government, or will that be when we get Labour back to continue with the great job they were doing.

 

[stevie_r]

Ostriches and the ill informed in abundance.

 

[SocketRocket]

Ostriches and the ill informed in abundance.

A crude comment that does you no credit. Snelly was correct in his comments on how some of you guys despise anyone who has a contrary opinion to your left wing anti-establishment cynicism. Will you be happy with your lot if the two EDs come to power and wash away all the tears from our eyes?

 

[stevie_r]

A crude comment that does you no credit. Snelly was correct in his comments on how some of you guys despise anyone who has a contrary opinion to your left wing anti-establishment cynicism. Will you be happy with your lot if the two EDs come to power and wash away all the tears from our eyes?

What I find rather sad is your immovable stance that Britain has always been the champion of the oppressed and promoter of human rights around the world. Our history is littered with evidence that it has been neither, both in terms of foreign nations and our own populace.

We were a major colonial power, I don't decry that, it was necessary. Underdeveloped nation has abundant natural resources that they didn't need or indeed know how to utilise. We go and take them by force of arms. Every European power did it. To believe that we were doing great works by doing this is laughable.

Tell me, why did we have a lease on Hong Kong? If you don't know then google it.

I don't denigrate the efforts of any soldier, we go where the politicians decide; so tell me, why do you believe your father was in Burma?

You seem to think, as you have already stated, that Britain has always a leader in the field of human rights. Would you like to discuss, only going back a couple of centuries, our treatment of the mentally ill? Poor finding themselves in debt? Not that long ago in the last century young unmarried mothers having their children taken from them? Many of these children forcibly removed to the colonies. Us being the country most overtly monitored by it's own government of any country in the Western World.

We have a government (parties being irrelevant in this case) who are happy to commit us to pointless wars, In once case the cause of which was a blatant lie. We slunk away from Iraq with our tails between our legs having achieved nothing, well apart from supporting Dubyah in getting one over on his dad. We will slink away from Afghanistan having achieved the same result.

Many of those who fought in World War 2 fought for the very survival of our nation and to free those countries invaded and subdued by a lunatic, very commendable. Many men in World War 2 fought to maintain a hold over some of our colonies and their natural resources; not fighting for freedom but to maintain our position of imperialism, commendable but a lit bit less commendable. Can you see the difference and a little bit of irony there?

So, in their dotage, the casualties (both physical and mental) of our two most recent pointless fiascos won't even really be draw on the fact that they were fighting for the liberties of their countrymen. They include my wife, as already alluded to; and my nephew who at 23 had his lower leg shattered by a high velocity round in Helmand province - he will never regain anywhere near full functionality. You can read about him if you wish, he is mentioned in the book 'Six months without Sundays - the Scots Guards in Afghanistan.

So, we have a government who is happy to embroil us in pointless but very expensive conflicts - you wouldn't think we were on our erchies financially. Ministers who constantly prove that far too high a number of them are totally self-serving. Our police force lurches from scandal to scandal (at the higher levels - not the average guy on the beat). A legal system that while pretty good still beggars belief at times. For example, convict (unsafely) a guy of murder, 8 years later admit you got it wrong and all he gets is sorry, no compensation, for the loss of 8 years liberty.

And yet, laughingly, we are a shining beacon of truth, liberty and an example to the rest of the world. We have been for centuries, you said so.

 

[SocketRocket]

What I find rather sad is your immovable stance that Britain has always been the champion of the oppressed and promoter of human rights around the world. Our history is littered with evidence that it has been neither, both in terms of foreign nations and our own populace.

We were a major colonial power, I don't decry that, it was necessary. Underdeveloped nation has abundant natural resources that they didn't need or indeed know how to utilise. We go and take them by force of arms. Every European power did it. To believe that we were doing great works by doing this is laughable.

Tell me, why did we have a lease on Hong Kong? If you don't know then google it.

I don't denigrate the efforts of any soldier, we go where the politicians decide; so tell me, why do you believe your father was in Burma?

You seem to think, as you have already stated, that Britain has always a leader in the field of human rights. Would you like to discuss, only going back a couple of centuries, our treatment of the mentally ill? Poor finding themselves in debt? Not that long ago in the last century young unmarried mothers having their children taken from them? Many of these children forcibly removed to the colonies. Us being the country most overtly monitored by it's own government of any country in the Western World.

We have a government (parties being irrelevant in this case) who are happy to commit us to pointless wars, In once case the cause of which was a blatant lie. We slunk away from Iraq with our tails between our legs having achieved nothing, well apart from supporting Dubyah in getting one over on his dad. We will slink away from Afghanistan having achieved the same result.

Many of those who fought in World War 2 fought for the very survival of our nation and to free those countries invaded and subdued by a lunatic, very commendable. Many men in World War 2 fought to maintain a hold over some of our colonies and their natural resources; not fighting for freedom but to maintain our position of imperialism, commendable but a lit bit less commendable. Can you see the difference and a little bit of irony there?

So, in their dotage, the casualties (both physical and mental) of our two most recent pointless fiascos won't even really be draw on the fact that they were fighting for the liberties of their countrymen. They include my wife, as already alluded to; and my nephew who at 23 had his lower leg shattered by a high velocity round in Helmand province - he will never regain anywhere near full functionality. You can read about him if you wish, he is mentioned in the book 'Six months without Sundays - the Scots Guards in Afghanistan.

So, we have a government who is happy to embroil us in pointless but very expensive conflicts - you wouldn't think we were on our erchies financially. Ministers who constantly prove that far too high a number of them are totally self-serving. Our police force lurches from scandal to scandal (at the higher levels - not the average guy on the beat). A legal system that while pretty good still beggars belief at times. For example, convict (unsafely) a guy of murder, 8 years later admit you got it wrong and all he gets is sorry, no compensation, for the loss of 8 years liberty.

And yet, laughingly, we are a shining beacon of truth, liberty and an example to the rest of the world. We have been for centuries, you said so.

Did I really say all those things! Funny how I cant remember saying them or even find the posts. I can remember making some comments on how I prefer our laws to be made and administered by our own country with the House of Lords being the ultimate court of appeal.


I think you have become confused with what I have posted, dont feel isolated in this though, a number of people have done the same recently. It seems to have become a trend, especially with those who have a trait of believing anyone who holds anything but a left of centre view must be wrong in anything they say or think.

It is absolutely pointless harping back to places in history and suggesting things like how the mentally ill were treated in Victorian times has some kind of relevance today. I am glad you also mention the Iraq war and almost said it was Tony Blair that was responsible but seemed to hold back on that bit as it's better to sound as if the Torys have been responsible for all things bad.

Please look a little to yourself and your own prejudices before blindly accusing others.

 

[Mungoscorner]

Did I really say all those things! Funny how I cant remember saying them or even find the posts. I can remember making some comments on how I prefer our laws to be made and administered by our own country with the House of Lords being the ultimate court of appeal.


I think you have become confused with what I have posted, dont feel isolated in this though, a number of people have done the same recently. It seems to have become a trend, especially with those who have a trait of believing anyone who holds anything but a left of centre view must be wrong in anything they say or think.

It is absolutely pointless harping back to places in history and suggesting things like how the mentally ill were treated in Victorian times has some kind of relevance today. I am glad you also mention the Iraq war and almost said it was Tony Blair that was responsible but seemed to hold back on that bit as it's better to sound as if the Torys have been responsible for all things bad.

Please look a little to yourself and your own prejudices before blindly accusing others.

Do you ever stop ?