How many penalty shots?

[oltimer]

Player duffs tee shot, 80 yards short of River crossing fairway, plays 2nd shot then seen looking in banks of river, takes a pen drop tee side of river, next reaches his ball on fairway and plays it, then 20 yds on finds his first ball, both balls identical make/markings, am aware its a total of 2 shots for playing a wrong ball but what is the situ for dropping a ball at the edge of the Pen Area when he didn`t know for a fact the ball was in it.

 

[Colin L]

It could be just the one penalty stroke for relief from the penalty area. He didn't have to know for a fact that his ball was in the river, he just had to have virtual certainty - which leaves room for being wrong. If there was virtual certainty (and that information isn't at the moment available to us) he would just pick up his original ball and carry on with the substituted one without additional penalty. If he didn't have KVC it's something like carrying on with the substituted ball getting 1 stroke for the penalty area and 2 for an improper substitiion but that's said in a rush and I might have overlooked something

Apologies but I'm just heading out for a game and don't have time to get the rules reference for that. I'll do so later if no-one else has come up with it.

 

[Ethan]

In my opinion, he played tee shot (duff), second shot (possibly but not actually in river), played 4th with dropped ball (if not properly declared as provo), then 5th shot further up fairway. First ball out of play as soon as second ball played but not declared as provo.

 

[Orikoru]

In my opinion, he played tee shot (duff), second shot (possibly but not actually in river), played 4th with dropped ball (if not properly declared as provo), then 5th shot further up fairway. First ball out of play as soon as second ball played but not declared as provo.

I would agree with that. The ball he dropped was not a provisional if he believed he was in the water. So as soon as he drops the new ball and hits it, that's the new ball in play. So just proceed on that basis, and finding the original ball further on is immaterial. No additional penalty for 'playing the wrong ball' because he put a new one in play so it wasn't the wrong ball.

 

[jim8flog]

Within your description I am not understanding ' plays 2nd shot' was this from the tee or from where he found his first tee shot if the latter is it this shot he he believed that went in to the penalty area.

The relevant rules for what happened are
If the player’s original ball has not been found and the player put another ball in play to take stroke-and-distance relief (see Rules 17.1d, 18.1, 18.2b and 19.2a) or as allowed under a Rule that applies when it is known or virtually certain what happened to the ball (see Rules 6.3c, 9.6, 11.2c, 15.2b, 16.1e and 17.1c):

• The player must continue playing with the substituted ball, and
• The player must not play the original ball even if it is found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 18.2a(1)).

If it is strongly believed that the player played a second ball when he should not have done (no reasonable certainty that the ball was in the penalty area)

(3) Making Stroke at Incorrectly Substituted Ball. If a player makes a stroke at an incorrectly substituted ball:

• The player gets the general penalty.
• In stroke play, the player must then play out the hole with the incorrectly substituted ball.

If multiple Rule breaches result from a single act or related acts, see Rule 1.3c(4).

One important point within that description of what happened is that when the player finds 2 balls with both same number and markings and could not definitely adjudicate which ball was which by dint of position then he is deemed to have lost the ball and must return to where he played the last shot from and play another. If he did not do this and it was a Medal Competition then he is DQd.

 

[jim8flog]

Further to that you do not say how how he proceeded when he found the original ball. Noting;-

• In stroke play, the player must then play out the hole with the incorrectly substituted ball.

If he continued with the original ball then Rule 1.3c (4) would come into a play and whether or not this is all considered part of the wrong action in the first place.

 

[Ethan]

Within your description I am not understanding ' plays 2nd shot' was this from the tee or from where he found his first tee shot if the latter is it this shot he he believed that went in to the penalty area.

The relevant rules for what happened are
If the player’s original ball has not been found and the player put another ball in play to take stroke-and-distance relief (see Rules 17.1d, 18.1, 18.2b and 19.2a) or as allowed under a Rule that applies when it is known or virtually certain what happened to the ball (see Rules 6.3c, 9.6, 11.2c, 15.2b, 16.1e and 17.1c):

• The player must continue playing with the substituted ball, and
• The player must not play the original ball even if it is found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 18.2a(1)).

If it is strongly believed that the player played a second ball when he should not have done (no reasonable certainty that the ball was in the penalty area)

(3) Making Stroke at Incorrectly Substituted Ball. If a player makes a stroke at an incorrectly substituted ball:

• The player gets the general penalty.
• In stroke play, the player must then play out the hole with the incorrectly substituted ball.

If multiple Rule breaches result from a single act or related acts, see Rule 1.3c(4).

One important point within that description of what happened is that when the player finds 2 balls with both same number and markings and could not definitely adjudicate which ball was which by dint of position then he is deemed to have lost the ball and must return to where he played the last shot from and play another. If he did not do this and it was a Medal Competition then he is DQd.

I took it as playing the duffed tee shot from short of the river and thinking he had hit it into the river in 2.

 

[rulefan]

We need oltimer to confirm it and confirm the player hadn't declared it as a provisional.

 

[oltimer]

Within your description I am not understanding ' plays 2nd shot' was this from the tee or from where he found his first tee shot if the latter is it this shot he he believed that went in to the penalty area.

The relevant rules for what happened are
If the player’s original ball has not been found and the player put another ball in play to take stroke-and-distance relief (see Rules 17.1d, 18.1, 18.2b and 19.2a) or as allowed under a Rule that applies when it is known or virtually certain what happened to the ball (see Rules 6.3c, 9.6, 11.2c, 15.2b, 16.1e and 17.1c):

• The player must continue playing with the substituted ball, and
• The player must not play the original ball even if it is found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 18.2a(1)).

If it is strongly believed that the player played a second ball when he should not have done (no reasonable certainty that the ball was in the penalty area)

(3) Making Stroke at Incorrectly Substituted Ball. If a player makes a stroke at an incorrectly substituted ball:

• The player gets the general penalty.
• In stroke play, the player must then play out the hole with the incorrectly substituted ball.

If multiple Rule breaches result from a single act or related acts, see Rule 1.3c(4).

One important point within that description of what happened is that when the player finds 2 balls with both same number and markings and could not definitely adjudicate which ball was which by dint of position then he is deemed to have lost the ball and must return to where he played the last shot from and play another. If he did not do this and it was a Medal Competition then he is DQd.

1st a v.short tee shot, 2nd intended to clear the pen area and land short of the green which has a pond in front of it.
he then looked for the 2nd shot in the pen area, pen drop and played over it., the 1st ball they found was from his 2nd shot which obviously was not in the pen area, 2nd ball found being the one dropped behind the pen area.

 

[oltimer]

We need oltimer to confirm it and confirm the player hadn't declared it as a provisional.

Not a prov (can`t play such knowing ball is in pa) not in earshot but had to be pen drop, prov would have req`d him to go back some 70 yds where he hit 2nd shot from not 2 yards behind pen area.

 

[jim8flog]

Not a prov (can`t play such knowing ball is in pa) not in earshot but had to be pen drop, prov would have req`d him to go back some 70 yds where he hit 2nd shot from not 2 yards behind pen area.

Thanks I had assumed but assumption is not good in cases like this.

Re my original post and post #6

Was it very clear by both balls position which ball was which or could they have been muddled in the walk to them and which of the 2 balls did the player complete the hole with?

 

[Colin L]

Player duffs tee shot, 80 yards short of River crossing fairway, plays 2nd shot then seen looking in banks of river, takes a pen drop tee side of river, next reaches his ball on fairway and plays it, then 20 yds on finds his first ball, both balls identical make/markings, am aware its a total of 2 shots for playing a wrong ball but what is the situ for dropping a ball at the edge of the Pen Area when he didn`t know for a fact the ball was in it.

Where did this discussion of a provisional come from? He could not possibly be playing a provisional at any point.

 

[oltimer]

Where did this discussion of a provisional come from? He could not possibly be playing a provisional at any point.

earlier post - but not from me as prov would have to have been played from where he hit the 2nd shot and before he looked in the pen area.

 

[oltimer]

I think your original explanation was very clear.

Here is what I did - tell me if correct or not. 1st -tee shot, 2nd towards/over Pen Area, 3rd shot pen drop, 4th shot from drop, then find his 2nd shot (Original ball)
add 2 pen shots = 6, 7th shot to green, one putt total 8. Bear in mind we are holding up at least 2 groups some capable of landing tee shots where we are and a person who wont accept he`s played a wrong ball because both balls are his and clearly marked so. advised him to enter an 8 and we`d check it out afterwards
but he wasn`t very sociable by this time.

 

[Colin L]

If there was virtual certainty his 2nd shot was in the penalty area, he was right to drop another ball and should have carried on with it. Finding his original ball does not change that. Total penalty strokes 1. If he played his original ball it was a wrong ball with a 2 stroke penalty and the requirement to go back and play the correct one

This next bit is a revision of what I said earlier. If there wasn't virtual certainty, the only rule under which he could substitute another ball for his original ball was stroke and distance and by dropping another ball at the river, he played from a wrong place. As this was some 80 yards forward from where he played his previous shot, I would say it was a serious breach , in which case he had to correct the mistake and go back to play from the correct place. If he didn't he would be disqualified. If in other circumstances you play from a wrong place and it isn't a serious breach you carry on with the substituted ball with a 2 stroke penalty. If you find your original ball and play it after any substitution, you have played a wrong ball with a 2 stroke penalty and must correct that error by finding and playing the right one. If you don't you are disqualified.

 

[Colin L]

I don't get the relevance of the identical balls. Did his substituted ball played from beside the river end up so near his original ball that he didn't know which was which? There was nothing to that effect in the original narrative.

 

[backwoodsman]

The difficulty for me is Colin L's thoughts about "virtual certainty".

Oltimer refers to the player looking in the river and/or riverbank after playing his second shot. He doesnt find his ball so drops another outside the Penalty Area and plays it (ie in belief of playing 4th shot). He doesnt say how well this ball was struck but it evidently clears the PA by a reasonable margin and player follows after it with intention to play it - and does so. Then, he goes on a further 20 yards and finds his original ball (ie the one hit hit as his second shot).

The location of this ball, IMO, is way too far from the PA for there to have been any semblance of virtual certainty of the ball being in the PA at the time is was struck as the 2nd shot. Therefore, again IMO, the only real outcome would be as per second part of Colin's post #18 - ie a serious breach of playing from wrong place and DQ if not corrected.

 

[oltimer]

I don't get the relevance of the identical balls. Did his substituted ball played from beside the river end up so near his original ball that he didn't know which was which? There was nothing to that effect in the original narrative.

After crossing the River the player and fellow opponent came to a ball, apparently the player thought he had hit it further with his last shot but was the ball he was using with his id on it so he played it, then a further 30 yds on came across an identical ball (also his), he then claimed the ball nearer the hole was his first ball, so I advised he also play that and we would sort it out afterwards, as he obviously didn`t see where the first landed as he searched the PA - I have no idea how he could know which of his two balls was the one used off the tee only that he took a drop from the PA assuming it had entered it, (he only had to hit it 60yds to clear the PA) none of our group made the cut so just interested in what the correct pens would be.

 

[jim8flog]

Here is what I did - tell me if correct or not. 1st -tee shot, 2nd towards/over Pen Area, 3rd shot pen drop, 4th shot from drop, then find his 2nd shot (Original ball)
add 2 pen shots = 6, 7th shot to green, one putt total 8. Bear in mind we are holding up at least 2 groups some capable of landing tee shots where we are and a person who wont accept he`s played a wrong ball because both balls are his and clearly marked so. advised him to enter an 8 and we`d check it out afterwards
but he wasn`t very sociable by this time.

I would again refer you to my questions in #12

If the player could not be sure which ball was which then any procedure (as described) taken from this point onward was a wrong one If the player continued with the 1st ball then there would be additional penalties.

As to number of strokes up the point the other side of the river depends on ones view either 4 or 5.

 

[jim8flog]

After crossing the River the player and fellow opponent came to a ball, apparently the player thought he had hit it further with his last shot but was the ball he was using with his id on it so he played it, then a further 30 yds on came across an identical ball (also his), he then claimed the ball nearer the hole was his first ball, so I advised he also play that and we would sort it out afterwards, as he obviously didn`t see where the first landed as he searched the PA - I have no idea how he could know which of his two balls was the one used off the tee only that he took a drop from the PA assuming it had entered it, (he only had to hit it 60yds to clear the PA) none of our group made the cut so just interested in what the correct pens would be.

Playing the first ball at this point it is an incorrect procedure and he would occur additional penalties for doing so. Having decided to drop a ball the other side of the penalty area he must continue with that ball.

See my post #5
he would occur an additional 2 stroke penalty for playing a stroke at the wrong ball and must correct the error

If he fails to so so he is DQd in stroke play

6.3c
In stroke play, the player must correct the mistake by continuing play with the original ball by playing it as it lies or taking relief under the Rules:
• The stroke made with the wrong ball and any more strokes before the mistake is corrected (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count.
• If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning his or her scorecard, the player is disqualified.

If you advise someone to sort it out when you get in advise them to follow the 2 balls procedure

d. When Player May Play More Than One Ball at a Time

A player may play more than one ball at a time on a hole only when:

• Playing two balls in stroke play to correct a possible serious breach in playing from a wrong place (see Rule 14.7b) or when uncertain about the right procedure to use (see Rule 20.1c(3)).