Hitting the Flagstick with a Putter

[mikejohnchapman]

You know the feeling when you are convinced you are right but can't find any proof..............

Whilst playing yesterday one of our group had a very short putt to complete the hole. With the flag in he hit the ball into the hole and in his frustration with the previous miss his exaggerated putter follow-through hit the flagstick.

One of the group was convinced this was a penalty as the ball was loaded against the flag but dropped into the hole when he struck the flagstick. I argued that part of the ball was below the putting surface when the putter hit the flagstick on the follow-through so the hole was completed but the sequence was very very short.

Before submitting the score we tried to find any reference to a club hitting the flagstick but couldn't - hence no mention, no penalty?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ball is holed off any part of the ball breaks the circumference of the top of the hole so if the ball is resting against the flag then it’s holed

 

[Swango1980]

You know the feeling when you are convinced you are right but can't find any proof..............

Whilst playing yesterday one of our group had a very short putt to complete the hole. With the flag in he hit the ball into the hole and in his frustration with the previous miss his exaggerated putter follow-through hit the flagstick.

One of the group was convinced this was a penalty as the ball was loaded against the flag but dropped into the hole when he struck the flagstick. I argued that part of the ball was below the putting surface when the putter hit the flagstick on the follow-through so the hole was completed but the sequence was very very short.

Before submitting the score we tried to find any reference to a club hitting the flagstick but couldn't - hence no mention, no penalty?

Surely the ball was already defined as holed, regardless of what the player did to the flagstick thereafter

 

[jim8flog]

Ball is holed off any part of the ball breaks the circumference of the top of the hole so if the ball is resting against the flag then it’s holed

to be pedantic

Holed
When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.
When the Rules refer to “holing out” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.
For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

If the flag stick is moving surely so is the ball.


so the question has to be is this been breached?

a. Leaving Flagstick in Hole

If you make a stroke with the flagstick left in the hole and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.

The decision to have the flagstick in the hole must be made before your stroke, by either leaving the flagstick in the hole or having a removed flagstick put back.

In either case, you must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the flagstick to a position other than centred in the hole. If you do so and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, you get the general penalty.

One for Rules experts

 

[Colin L]

If "loaded against the flagstick but dropped into the hole when he struck the flagstick" means two sequential events - the ball has stopped against the flagstick and then the putter hits the flagstick - then it's as said above. The ball was holed before the putter hit the flagstick and what happened as a result of that is irrelevant.

Even if the ball had been in motion when the flagstick was struck, I don't see a penalty as it would seem hitting it was accidental.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

If "loaded against the flagstick but dropped into the hole when he struck the flagstick" means two sequential events - the ball has stopped against the flagstick and then the putter hits the flagstick - then it's as said above. The ball was holed before the putter hit the flagstick and what happened as a result of that is irrelevant.

Even if the ball had been in motion when the flagstick was struck, I don't see a penalty as it would seem hitting it was accidental.

In all honesty it was born out of frustration rather than trying to gain an advantage. I am happy the ball had been holed but the timing was such that you would have needed a slow-motion replay to confirm.

Never really comfortable to say to someone that unless you can point it out in the rulebook I must be right.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

to be pedantic

Holed
When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.
When the Rules refer to “holing out” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.
For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

If the flag stick is moving surely so is the ball.


so the question has to be is this been breached?

a. Leaving Flagstick in Hole

If you make a stroke with the flagstick left in the hole and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.

The decision to have the flagstick in the hole must be made before your stroke, by either leaving the flagstick in the hole or having a removed flagstick put back.

In either case, you must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the flagstick to a position other than centred in the hole. If you do so and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, you get the general penalty.

One for Rules experts

As per the last sentence. The wording indicates no penalty in this case. In OP case the ball is not in motion, it has come to rest against the flagstick,( with some part below putting surface, thus it is holed) and then the flagstick is moved.
For a penalty, the sequence has to be the other way round, yes?

 

[Colin L]

As per the last sentence. The wording indicates no penalty in this case. In OP case the ball is not in motion, it has come to rest against the flagstick,( with some part below putting surface, thus it is holed) and then the flagstick is moved.
For a penalty, the sequence has to be the other way round, yes?

As above, I don't see a penalty if the sequence were the other way round as hitting the flagstick was accidental.

 

[rulie]

to be pedantic

Holed
When a ball is at rest in the hole after a stroke and the entire ball is below the surface of the putting green.
When the Rules refer to “holing out” or “hole out,” it means when the player’s ball is holed.
For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

If the flag stick is moving surely so is the ball.


so the question has to be is this been breached?

a. Leaving Flagstick in Hole

If you make a stroke with the flagstick left in the hole and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies.

The decision to have the flagstick in the hole must be made before your stroke, by either leaving the flagstick in the hole or having a removed flagstick put back.

In either case, you must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the flagstick to a position other than centred in the hole. If you do so and the ball in motion then hits the flagstick, you get the general penalty.

One for Rules experts

And even more pedantic,

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"

The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.

However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.