Hit down on your irons - the pros don't!

[garyinderry]

If the ball deflects the club down into the ground then how does anyone ever sweep the ball off the turf with no divot?

 

[ManinBlack]

If the ball deflects the club down into the ground then how does anyone ever sweep the ball off the turf with no divot?

The laws of physics say this must happen. These folks must catch the ball on the up or thin. There's no other explanation.

 

[the_coach]

speaking of all optimum iron strikes with normal full swings the clubhead is moving downwards into the ball the low point of the swing arc is after the strike so the divot - downwards deflection of the face angle although it occurs is somewhat of a 'red herring' it isn't the reason a divot is taken

going back to an earlier point about best transfer of energy at impact - if you sweep an iron strike you won't get the condition of optimum dynamic loft which will result in the spin loft angle being greater - spin loft greater with face loft greater will mean less ball speed, higher launch angle higher peak height so not optimum trajectory or carry distance

it's a ways difficult to have an iron angle of attack near to 0º without adding loft through face angle at strike & the ball's left the face in less than 1/2 a millisecond so any deflected face angle has no bearing on launch angle or spin rate - {the reason also folks cannot influence ball flight with the hands once the club makes contact with ball}

so at the strike it will add more spin more height less ball speed to the shot so ball will fall shorter than optimum impact conditions

plus it will also bring contacting the ground before impact into play so more margin or error to having a solid strike

 

[One Planer]

That's a very special kind of shot though, isn't it? And you can clearly see the club move downwards at impact by roughly the depth of the divot.

I agree it's a specialist shot for sure.

My point was probably more subtle than intended.

Look at the AoA the club is taking in the downswing and even to the point where the club head impacts the ball..

The club head is, clearly, travelling towards the ball on a downward angle.

Is this not hitting down?

 

[ManinBlack]

speaking of all optimum iron strikes with normal full swings the clubhead is moving downwards into the ball the low point of the swing arc is after the strike so the divot - downwards deflection of the face angle although it occurs is somewhat of a 'red herring' it isn't the reason a divot is taken

going back to an earlier point about best transfer of energy at impact - if you sweep an iron strike you won't get the condition of optimum dynamic loft which will result in the spin loft angle being greater - spin loft greater with face loft greater will mean less ball speed, higher launch angle higher peak height so not optimum trajectory or carry distance

it's a ways difficult to have an iron angle of attack near to 0º without adding loft through face angle at strike & the ball's left the face in less than 1/2 a millisecond so any deflected face angle has no bearing on launch angle or spin rate - {the reason also folks cannot influence ball flight with the hands once the club makes contact with ball}

so at the strike it will add more spin more height less ball speed to the shot so ball will fall shorter than optimum impact conditions

plus it will also bring contacting the ground before impact into play so more margin or error to having a solid strike

Not sure I agree with any of this. A pronounced downward strike will simply have the effect of reducing the loft. With a minimally downward strike the ball will still ride up the clubface & spin will be imparted just the same. Comparing two theoretical extremes, a very steep A of A requires a very precise strike to avoid topping the ball or digging in behind it. A shallow A of A with the club running parallel to the ground over a large distance gives much more margin for error, the bottom of the swing can be a little way behind or in front of the ball and still give good contact.

I'd really like to see more close up Swingvision strikes with the A of A & downward deflection actually measured instead of interpolated as with Trackman etc. Certainly, the video I've seen suggests that the downward strike is nowhere near as steep as I & most other people imagined.

 

[Robster59]

That's a fairly low lofted club. I'd like to see the same thing with a higher loft.
At the end of the day, golf can be complex enough. For me to worry about if my club deflects by 0.? of a degree is not something I want to have ringing in my head while playing a shot.

 

[ManinBlack]

That's a fairly low lofted club. I'd like to see the same thing with a higher loft.
At the end of the day, golf can be complex enough. For me to worry about if my club deflects by 0.? of a degree is not something I want to have ringing in my head while playing a shot.

Nor me, but ive gone through phases when I've thought I needed to hit down on the ball more & concentrated on that. It never worked & now I understand why.

 

[Paul77]

For every action there's a reaction. However, I'm not sure that there's enough weight in the ball to cause deflection of the club in a downward way to cause the divot with club heads travelling at the speeds they do. It is interesting, and I don't think we're always told what the pros are. The steep angle they keep referring to in lessons is likely too steep and also what's all this -1.3 driver AoA ???? I got a grilling from the club pro for doing that and forced me to make this a positive number at the cost of distance I might add.

 

[garyinderry]

For every action there's a reaction. However, I'm not sure that there's enough weight in the ball to cause deflection of the club in a downward way to cause the divot with club heads travelling at the speeds they do. It is interesting, and I don't think we're always told what the pros are. The steep angle they keep referring to in lessons is likely too steep and also what's all this -1.3 driver AoA ???? I got a grilling from the club pro for doing that and forced me to make this a positive number at the cost of distance I might add.

You should gain carry by hitting with a positive aoa. There is no two ways about it. As long as you have the same ball speed and spin.

The slowest pro swing speed would be in the upper echelons here. (sorry forum) they don't need to all hit up on it as they are trying to keep the ball in play.

 

[Paul77]

You should gain carry by hitting with a positive aoa. There is no two ways about it. As long as you have the same ball speed and spin.

The slowest pro swing speed would be in the upper echelons here. (sorry forum) they don't need to all hit up on it as they are trying to keep the ball in play.

Indeed. The average tour pro clubhead speed is 60-70 mph faster than mine. Time to work on my lag angles lol. Kidding.

 

[Jimaroid]

The article linked to in the OP that's triggered this debate has some flaws. The thing that bothers me is that rigid body dynamics are much more complicated than he's shown in his calculations. In particular, the omission of torque is significant.

Here's one of his original images with a white annotation I added. Whilst the toe of the club moves down, the ferule starts to move up. Which is what you'd expect due to torque.

 

[the_coach]

Not sure I agree with any of this. A pronounced downward strike will simply have the effect of reducing the loft. With a minimally downward strike the ball will still ride up the clubface & spin will be imparted just the same. Comparing two theoretical extremes, a very steep A of A requires a very precise strike to avoid topping the ball or digging in behind it. A shallow A of A with the club running parallel to the ground over a large distance gives much more margin for error, the bottom of the swing can be a little way behind or in front of the ball and still give good contact.

I'd really like to see more close up Swingvision strikes with the A of A & downward deflection actually measured instead of interpolated as with Trackman etc. Certainly, the video I've seen suggests that the downward strike is nowhere near as steep as I & most other people imagined.

thing is neither trackman or what i've said is speaking to a 'pronounced downwards strike'

irons are struck with a -AoA it's just that the down is not 'steep' between -3 to -4 with a 6i isn't steep it's shallow

so shallow but downwards with a forwards leaning shaft so the face angle is delofted & also presents around the 4th & a bit groove around the equator of the ball for optimum strike & transfer of energy to the ball - why good players have that 'hiss' sound through the strike a penetrating flight & optimum distance

the shallow -4AoA (6i) angle puts the low point target side of the ball - so rules out totally any ground contact before the ball - so 'clean' strike
trying to sweep in an iron close to a 0º AoA means the clubhead has to be traveling real close to the ground for a good bunch of inches before contact real easy to be mm's out & it's some sort of fat-ish strike
plus the shaft angle would have to be real close to vertical, face to ball either just before the hands or at the same time so no lower dynamic loft presented at impact but more the static build loft of the club or even a little added so no real optimum strike too high a launch angle to high a flight why folks irons often don't fly as far they should but more a bunch of peak height too much

would forget all about face deflection that takes place in less than 1/2 a millisecond
there's a danger of one misconception being swopped for a couple more

in a good strike the 'deloft' so good dynamic loft being presented through impact doesn't happen through a pronounced downwards attack angle that would present the wrong part of the face to the wrong part of the ball with most of the energy moving downwards so not very good launch conditions

- better to concentrate on better impact conditions
hands lead a forwards leaning shaft in a shallow across the bag of irons is only around 2º - 3i around -3º to wedge around -5º

{the trackman data for pga averages been recorded since around 2006/7 from every tour event across one hole plus more data being recorded every week on the practice grounds so many thousands of shots
the radar tracking of shots from grass, outside in real conditions, & the shot data recored in real time, so the data of path & AoA of the clubhead is not a record of interpolated data}

 

[Three]

Not sure I agree with any of this. .

You should do, this guy knows his stuff.

 

[ManinBlack]

I give in! What I've learned from this is that hitting down on the ball occurs naturally & is at a less steep angle than I imagined. Any attempt to hit consciously down on the ball is destructive and I now understand why it has never worked for me. I'm still surprised, looking at some of the Swingvision close ups, at how shallow the impacts look, even with the short clubs. It seems to me that the swingpath is flattened out at the bottom by the movement in the direction of the hole of the legs, hips & upper body on the downswing. I still think that this flattening out increases, rather than reduces, the margin for error in the strike.

 

[Paul77]

I give in! What I've learned from this is that hitting down on the ball occurs naturally & is at a less steep angle than I imagined. Any attempt to hit consciously down on the ball is destructive and I now understand why it has never worked for me. I'm still surprised, looking at some of the Swingvision close ups, at how shallow the impacts look, even with the short clubs. It seems to me that the swingpath is flattened out at the bottom by the movement in the direction of the hole of the legs, hips & upper body on the downswing. I still think that this flattening out increases, rather than reduces, the margin for error in the strike.

I have a wee theory on iron hitting but I really find it hard to write down, however, I kind of know where you're coming from.

It's almost like really good iron hitters are able to flatten out the bottom of the swing arc. I don't know if this is shaft lean, transfer of weight or other but either way eyes can't be decived when you see the clubhead dive slightly after the ball being hit. Could well be torsional like what was said above too. It's all very interesting.

 

[Three]

Any attempt to hit consciously down on the ball is destructive and I now understand why it has never worked for me..

The key is to bear in mind that we are all different, so what you need to feel can be totally different to what someone else needs to feel.

 

[garyinderry]

Ta da :swing:


Forward shaft lean, negative aoa and shallow divot. surprised this hasn't been posted yet.

[video=youtube;JxGxgUWWFzA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGxgUWWFzA[/video]

 

[Jimaroid]

It's almost like really good iron hitters are able to flatten out the bottom of the swing arc. I don't know if this is shaft lean, transfer of weight or other

That's because they are flattening the bottom of the swing arc. The mistake that seems to be made in trying to understand the path of the club at impact is that most mental models of the golf swing are that it's a single pendulum in 2D space - this is the idea that the club head rotates in a circular motion around a fixed point. In reality the swing is more like a quadruple pendulum without a fixed anchor in 3D space so the arc of the club head isn't a uniform curve. The spine, shoulder, arm and club are all pivoting.

The key thing in understanding the Angle of Attack is that as the club-to-wrist pivot approaches the ball, the shoulder-to-arm pivot is moving away from the ball at the same time. Think of it like pulling away from the ball with your left shoulder whilst at the same time unhinging your wrists. This can flatten out the curve into a straight line for a small period of time.

 

[ManinBlack]

I have a wee theory on iron hitting but I really find it hard to write down, however, I kind of know where you're coming from.

It's almost like really good iron hitters are able to flatten out the bottom of the swing arc. I don't know if this is shaft lean, transfer of weight or other but either way eyes can't be decived when you see the clubhead dive slightly after the ball being hit. Could well be torsional like what was said above too. It's all very interesting.

Referring back to the website mentioned in the OP, in another place he talks about a physicist trying to model the golf swing as a double pendulum. His mathematical calculations wouldn't produce the correct swing speed until he added a move whereby the entire double pendulum moved towards the ball prior to impact. This is what you see very clearly in slo mo video & is, in my view, how the bottom of the swing flattens out.

In his excellent book "The Art of the Short Game" Stan Utley (I'm the only person on this forum to have heard of him!) says that making this move on pitch shots makes it less critical where in the swingpath the club contacts the ball & leaves more margin for error. It works for me!

 

[Region3]

I give in! What I've learned from this is that hitting down on the ball occurs naturally & is at a less steep angle than I imagined. Any attempt to hit consciously down on the ball is destructive and I now understand why it has never worked for me. I'm still surprised, looking at some of the Swingvision close ups, at how shallow the impacts look, even with the short clubs. It seems to me that the swingpath is flattened out at the bottom by the movement in the direction of the hole of the legs, hips & upper body on the downswing. I still think that this flattening out increases, rather than reduces, the margin for error in the strike.

Although the AoA numbers quoted give an image of being steep and hitting down onto the ball, it isn't if you think about it another way.

Imagine a clockface with only a minute hand on it. A zero AoA would be the hand pointing to the 3 (or 15 minutes past).
A 6° downward AoA (thought of as quite steep) is the angle the minute hand would be at if it pointed to 16 minutes past.