chrisd
Major Champion
So you pick one of the most emotive subjects possible, post views that 99.9% of the forum members will be offended by and then you're the injured soldier - I wish you'd have thought twice before you posted in the first place!
Hillsborough Inquest
- Thread starter Berger
- Start date
So you pick one of the most emotive subjects possible, post views that 99.9% of the forum members will be offended by and then you're the injured soldier - I wish you'd have thought twice before you posted in the first place!
chrisd
Major Champion
That's how I'd feel Brian, but i just wondered how those so deeply affected and who'd fought for donkeys years feel, and whether they wanted years more of courts etc
Beezerk
Money List Winner
Give him a break eh?
I didn't realise you had to earn the right to post your thoughts on this forum, then again it's a bit like a regular golf club so maybe I'm wrong.
So what if his opinion differs from LB's, there's no need to be so personal and bite his head off IMO.
Liverbirdie
Ryder Cup Winner
I think liverpool fans will have their opinions Chris, but the main decision is what the families want.
I dont blame them for at least wanting to see the higher echelons, and the ones implicit in the cover up in a dock.
There were some heroic things done by some of the police and ambulance that day, but not all of them, by any stretch.
oxymoron
Club Champion
Am i not entitled to an opinion ? Not playing the injured soldier at all, silly comment really again was going to stay out but some wait then have a go and to say 99.9% offended ? So the 0.1 % are not entitled to voice their opinion however unpopular .I think its time to close this thread not because i am insulted , feel free to slag me all day if you want , but the vociferous few can bandy insults to others and not have a word said , very democratic just jump on the one who thinks a bit different .
Piece
Tour Winner
I don't see how you can have an 'opinion' when the solid, hard, indisputable facts have been laid bare that the Liverpool fans did NOT cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at their end.
I can give you my opinion that grass is blue, but the facts says it's green.
BoadieBroadus
Q-School Graduate
yes correct. this inquest was invaluable in determining undisputed facts of how the events unfolded. facts that ultimately had to be conceded as such by those who had done so much to obscure them and falsify them over the 27 years. what happened is now not a matter of "opinion" any longer.
U
User62651
Guest
Has taken an age but thankfully the jury has reached what I'm sure is the correct decision. This is a cover up of all cover ups by the authorities who had clearly got it all wrong and were ill prepared on the day. English fans were in a period in 1989 of being banned from Europe for 5 years for hooliganism particularly after the Heysel disaster where Liverpool fans were held largely responsible in indirectly causing the deaths of Juventus fans by crushing. For the powers that be dealing with Hillsborough a few years later it was likely too convenient and very cowardly to point to Heysel and hooliganism in general as 'evidence' that football fans in general were drunken and aggressive - thought they could pull a fast one and get away with blaming the HB disaster on the Liverpool fans.
Didn't work thankfully down to the families of the 96, but to have been so difficult and to have taken this long to get to the truth is unbelievable and shows the authorities up for what they were/are - cowards. Mrs Thatcher must have been complicit in all this cover up too I imagine. Shameful. Hoping relatives and friends can find some kind of closure now. However I think this will lead to further court cases from angry families demanding prosecutions and compensation etc.
Didn't work thankfully down to the families of the 96, but to have been so difficult and to have taken this long to get to the truth is unbelievable and shows the authorities up for what they were/are - cowards. Mrs Thatcher must have been complicit in all this cover up too I imagine. Shameful. Hoping relatives and friends can find some kind of closure now. However I think this will lead to further court cases from angry families demanding prosecutions and compensation etc.
chrisd
Major Champion
Yes of course but in the light of the subject and how emotive it is I personally would prefer that you keep it to yourself!
But that's just my opinion!
D
Deleted member 1740
Guest
The lies that SYP along with Thatcher and and her cronies peddled as the truth have been proved as what they where back then Lies!!
It was one of the biggest cover ups ever in this country.
It was one of the biggest cover ups ever in this country.
Foxholer
Blackballed
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...about-football-disaster-was-national-disgrace
THE STAGGERS 26 APRIL 2016
The Hillsborough verdict isn’t about football – the disaster was a national disgrace
It wasn't about football in 1989, it isn't about football now. It is about the fact that dehumanising doesn't just happen in moments, but can lead to deaths in seconds, can lead to lies for years, can ruin lives for lifetimes.
BY NEIL ATKINSON
It is important on days like today to remember that we can't expect one correct response from the thousands of people touched by the national disgrace which is the Hillsborough Disaster but can only hope for many human ones. Since the 15th April 1989 so many people have responded differently to what the events of that day set in motion. The most we can ask of ourselves is to be human and to allow others to be human in their own way. This process has been so long running and has involved so many different aspects of society that all human life is here.
Even now there are no neat endings. Even now the process is on going. All we can say is there just needs to be humanity. Yet even in this inquest, it was in short supply from some, for example the South Yorkshire Police and Yorkshire Ambulance Service who fought tooth and nail to avoid adverse findings from the jury. Unlike them all we can attempt to do is be gentle and accept there are few right answers, just people doing their best.
For instance, it is important to remember that a very small number of the families aren't even represented at the inquest. A number of the survivors would just wish to put it behind them. They just wanted to get on with their lives after the cataclysmic event. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
For some of the families and survivors today's verdict is enough. It's the end of the road, the wrong righted, the times of death confirmed. It is time to move on and get beyond this. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
For many others of the families and survivors today's verdict is a step on the road. The pressure will now come onto the IPCC, Operation Resolve and the CPS to see charges handed down, to see the process through to its conclusion in a courtroom. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
And for some, that event that will never be enough. Even that will never be enough for what happened twenty seven years ago and what went on to happen in the days, weeks and years that followed. For some there will be no respite from this, there will be no rest from the anger and the grief and the shame they were forced to feel. There will be no release. There will be no action which will ever bring peace, not after all the suppression and the sidelining of their truth, their truth which transpired to actually be The Truth. There is no end to this. This is what miscarriages of justice do. This too is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
Today, two incontrovertible facts have been made clear again: Firstly, that the 96 people were unlawfully killed. Secondly, that the behaviour of the Liverpool supporters did not cause the disaster. Further, what has become crystal clear through the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report, through this inquest, and what will become even clearer with the IPCC and Operation Resolve report expected by the end of the year, is the extent to which all these very human people were aggressively, endlessly dehumanised. Before, during and after the 15th April 1989.
The preparation of the semi-final and the response to the disaster – the immediate disaster, was inhumane. This is what the unlawful killing verdict means. The response to the disaster – the days, weeks and years that followed the 15th April 1989, did nothing but dehumanise those who had suffered: dehumanised the families bereaved; dehumanised those in the Leppings Lane end who survived and saved others when those there to protect them wilfully failed to act; dehumanised a city trapped in collective grief. The dehumanising started and it simply didn't stop, not for years, decades.
All this has become crystal clear.
It was pretty crystal clear all along if we can be honest with each other. But this is what dehumanising people does. What dehumanising people does is obscure what should be crystal clear and instead say that it doesn't really matter, that they turned up late, that they turned up drunk. That they robbed the dead. And then that they have a chip on their shoulder. That they are a self-pity city. That they are always the victims. Always the victims. It is never their fault. They weren't one of us. They were one of them.
Dehumanising people doesn't just happen over night – it isn't a cataclysmic event; it caused a cataclysmic event, it obscured a cataclysmic event but it isn't one itself. It is an erosion and a corrosion and it needs the circumstances to work. The Enemy Within. Managed decline. Orgreave. An attitude hammered home day after day after day for a decade and beyond towards working class people and football supporters and a city allowed the dehumanising to occur.
There is this line around Hillsborough that is often uttered by those within Liverpool - “they picked on the wrong cityâ€. It's a good folk story to tell ourselves. Like many such lines it is both completely true and absolutely false. Liverpool can organise, yes. Liverpool will fight and this was a fight led by Liverpool's women, Liverpool's mothers who simply would not ever let the lies lie. They wouldn't stand for it. For those who have campaigned aggressively today is another day of vindication, another day where their tenacity and bravery has to be applauded.
But they picked on the right city as well. The city was the softest target of a decade which had been set up to create and pick off soft targets. The dehumanisation happened and was allowed to happen to a city because those undertaking it knew so many nationwide would allow it to go on. To go on and on. This isn't just about a right wing government and a corrupt police force back then. The past isn't another country, let's not kid ourselves. The targets remain soft in this country – they are just less visible.
Therefore let's take today as another opportunity to be crystal clear and let's keep being crystal clear: Hillsborough is a national disgrace. I've been asked to write this because I host a podcast around Liverpool and Liverpool Football Club, because I write about football. But Hillsborough isn't about football, it just so happens that football is the thing that linked those 96 disparate lives, the thing that linked the thousands on the terraces – this thing of ours.
There are so many who should know better in this country, many who would subscribe then and now to a magazine such as this one, many who will have decided things can only get better in 1997, who will have presumed things must have gone wrong somewhere involving the supporters. Who will have assumed Hillsborough is a football tragedy and can be left over there. Who stood by as the biggest miscarriage of justice in British legal history took place. Because, well, “football supporters.†“Liverpool.†“Something a bit fishy but you know.†You know.
It wasn't about football in 1989, it isn't about football now. It is about the fact that dehumanising doesn't just happen in moments, but can lead to deaths in seconds, can lead to lies for years, can ruin lives for lifetimes.
This is the essence of the national disgrace, of this verdict, of every single time Hillsborough comes clattering back into public view. Our nation did this to its own people. Not the odd bad apple of a police officer, not a rogue reporter or two, not individuals but instead institutionalised inhumanity.
Our nation.
Neil Atkinson writes and presents podcasts at The Anfield Wrap.
THE STAGGERS 26 APRIL 2016
The Hillsborough verdict isn’t about football – the disaster was a national disgrace
It wasn't about football in 1989, it isn't about football now. It is about the fact that dehumanising doesn't just happen in moments, but can lead to deaths in seconds, can lead to lies for years, can ruin lives for lifetimes.
BY NEIL ATKINSON
It is important on days like today to remember that we can't expect one correct response from the thousands of people touched by the national disgrace which is the Hillsborough Disaster but can only hope for many human ones. Since the 15th April 1989 so many people have responded differently to what the events of that day set in motion. The most we can ask of ourselves is to be human and to allow others to be human in their own way. This process has been so long running and has involved so many different aspects of society that all human life is here.
Even now there are no neat endings. Even now the process is on going. All we can say is there just needs to be humanity. Yet even in this inquest, it was in short supply from some, for example the South Yorkshire Police and Yorkshire Ambulance Service who fought tooth and nail to avoid adverse findings from the jury. Unlike them all we can attempt to do is be gentle and accept there are few right answers, just people doing their best.
For instance, it is important to remember that a very small number of the families aren't even represented at the inquest. A number of the survivors would just wish to put it behind them. They just wanted to get on with their lives after the cataclysmic event. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
For some of the families and survivors today's verdict is enough. It's the end of the road, the wrong righted, the times of death confirmed. It is time to move on and get beyond this. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
For many others of the families and survivors today's verdict is a step on the road. The pressure will now come onto the IPCC, Operation Resolve and the CPS to see charges handed down, to see the process through to its conclusion in a courtroom. This is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
And for some, that event that will never be enough. Even that will never be enough for what happened twenty seven years ago and what went on to happen in the days, weeks and years that followed. For some there will be no respite from this, there will be no rest from the anger and the grief and the shame they were forced to feel. There will be no release. There will be no action which will ever bring peace, not after all the suppression and the sidelining of their truth, their truth which transpired to actually be The Truth. There is no end to this. This is what miscarriages of justice do. This too is very human and a perfectly understandable response.
Today, two incontrovertible facts have been made clear again: Firstly, that the 96 people were unlawfully killed. Secondly, that the behaviour of the Liverpool supporters did not cause the disaster. Further, what has become crystal clear through the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report, through this inquest, and what will become even clearer with the IPCC and Operation Resolve report expected by the end of the year, is the extent to which all these very human people were aggressively, endlessly dehumanised. Before, during and after the 15th April 1989.
The preparation of the semi-final and the response to the disaster – the immediate disaster, was inhumane. This is what the unlawful killing verdict means. The response to the disaster – the days, weeks and years that followed the 15th April 1989, did nothing but dehumanise those who had suffered: dehumanised the families bereaved; dehumanised those in the Leppings Lane end who survived and saved others when those there to protect them wilfully failed to act; dehumanised a city trapped in collective grief. The dehumanising started and it simply didn't stop, not for years, decades.
All this has become crystal clear.
It was pretty crystal clear all along if we can be honest with each other. But this is what dehumanising people does. What dehumanising people does is obscure what should be crystal clear and instead say that it doesn't really matter, that they turned up late, that they turned up drunk. That they robbed the dead. And then that they have a chip on their shoulder. That they are a self-pity city. That they are always the victims. Always the victims. It is never their fault. They weren't one of us. They were one of them.
Dehumanising people doesn't just happen over night – it isn't a cataclysmic event; it caused a cataclysmic event, it obscured a cataclysmic event but it isn't one itself. It is an erosion and a corrosion and it needs the circumstances to work. The Enemy Within. Managed decline. Orgreave. An attitude hammered home day after day after day for a decade and beyond towards working class people and football supporters and a city allowed the dehumanising to occur.
There is this line around Hillsborough that is often uttered by those within Liverpool - “they picked on the wrong cityâ€. It's a good folk story to tell ourselves. Like many such lines it is both completely true and absolutely false. Liverpool can organise, yes. Liverpool will fight and this was a fight led by Liverpool's women, Liverpool's mothers who simply would not ever let the lies lie. They wouldn't stand for it. For those who have campaigned aggressively today is another day of vindication, another day where their tenacity and bravery has to be applauded.
But they picked on the right city as well. The city was the softest target of a decade which had been set up to create and pick off soft targets. The dehumanisation happened and was allowed to happen to a city because those undertaking it knew so many nationwide would allow it to go on. To go on and on. This isn't just about a right wing government and a corrupt police force back then. The past isn't another country, let's not kid ourselves. The targets remain soft in this country – they are just less visible.
Therefore let's take today as another opportunity to be crystal clear and let's keep being crystal clear: Hillsborough is a national disgrace. I've been asked to write this because I host a podcast around Liverpool and Liverpool Football Club, because I write about football. But Hillsborough isn't about football, it just so happens that football is the thing that linked those 96 disparate lives, the thing that linked the thousands on the terraces – this thing of ours.
There are so many who should know better in this country, many who would subscribe then and now to a magazine such as this one, many who will have decided things can only get better in 1997, who will have presumed things must have gone wrong somewhere involving the supporters. Who will have assumed Hillsborough is a football tragedy and can be left over there. Who stood by as the biggest miscarriage of justice in British legal history took place. Because, well, “football supporters.†“Liverpool.†“Something a bit fishy but you know.†You know.
It wasn't about football in 1989, it isn't about football now. It is about the fact that dehumanising doesn't just happen in moments, but can lead to deaths in seconds, can lead to lies for years, can ruin lives for lifetimes.
This is the essence of the national disgrace, of this verdict, of every single time Hillsborough comes clattering back into public view. Our nation did this to its own people. Not the odd bad apple of a police officer, not a rogue reporter or two, not individuals but instead institutionalised inhumanity.
Our nation.
Neil Atkinson writes and presents podcasts at The Anfield Wrap.
Last edited by a moderator:
User20205
Money List Winner
to add contrary opinion on this now the findings are official is like offering opinion that the earth is flat, it's just nonsense.
Fan behavior was no different to others games up & down the country that season, none of those ended in the same way.
what happened was state endorsed manslaughter
Fan behavior was no different to others games up & down the country that season, none of those ended in the same way.
what happened was state endorsed manslaughter
bluewolf
Money List Winner
A fantastic day, and one that friends and family of mine who were at the game have waited a long time for.
On on a side note, I was chatting with Scouser at the Golf Club today. Both of us thought that it would be tonight before someone decided to post up a contrary "opinion". We thought that a few drinks would lubricate someone's trolling habits. I'm genuinely bemused that it took less than half an hour. People never fail to disappoint.
On on a side note, I was chatting with Scouser at the Golf Club today. Both of us thought that it would be tonight before someone decided to post up a contrary "opinion". We thought that a few drinks would lubricate someone's trolling habits. I'm genuinely bemused that it took less than half an hour. People never fail to disappoint.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
When facts are presented opinions no longer matter.
This is a long read and will probably make you shed a tear or two...
http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw
This is a long read and will probably make you shed a tear or two...
http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw
I don't claim to know enough to form an opinion on this - I was too young at the time to remember it and as I have no real connection to Liverpool I have never had much interest in understanding what happened.
However after today it is clear that facts have now been established, not opinions. Phenomenal work from the families who refused to accept corruption of the worst kind.
I read this piece at lunch - if anyone wants to clearly understand what happened that day, and the facts the enquiry has confirmed, I highly recommend this fantastic piece.
http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw
However after today it is clear that facts have now been established, not opinions. Phenomenal work from the families who refused to accept corruption of the worst kind.
I read this piece at lunch - if anyone wants to clearly understand what happened that day, and the facts the enquiry has confirmed, I highly recommend this fantastic piece.
http://www.theguardian.com/football...and-lies-that-lasted-decades?CMP=share_btn_tw
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
A proud and lifelong Everton fan who shed a few tears today at the absolutely fantastic news that came out of Warrington, the thought of my best mate who was there and has never been able to talk about it or my brother-in-law who has suffered nightmares for years over his guilt for coming home safe, but mostly for the 96 who went to football match and never came home.
To the families who have suffered and fought for this day and those family members who went to their graves fighting for the truth.
Let it sink in, let us rejoice, there'll be plenty of fighting and possible disappointments ahead, but today of all todays please remember the innocent 96.
To the families who have suffered and fought for this day and those family members who went to their graves fighting for the truth.
Let it sink in, let us rejoice, there'll be plenty of fighting and possible disappointments ahead, but today of all todays please remember the innocent 96.
I think the biggest thing for those still arguing the fact is that, irrespective of who you still blame for the events occurring. It had been proven that the cover up was real. And for that at least, all those responsible deserve to be dealt with.
im not sure what punishments they can face. As has been mentioned previously. I don't think the acts that unfolded during the tragedy were done so with malice. But, the events after clearly were with self preservation in mind. And that's what, ironically has caused them to be caught and probably dealt with more severely in time.
im not sure what punishments they can face. As has been mentioned previously. I don't think the acts that unfolded during the tragedy were done so with malice. But, the events after clearly were with self preservation in mind. And that's what, ironically has caused them to be caught and probably dealt with more severely in time.
SaintHacker
Journeyman Pro
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But occasionally a bit of common sense and decency should make people think twice about posting it.
Tarkus1212
Challenge Tour Pro
Spot on.
In fact those that are sticking with the opinion that the fans were to blame are basically saying that the jury got it wrong and that they know better - incredibly arrogant.
