Hillsborough Inquest

[HomerJSimpson]

Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.

You need to watch it soon or record it as I don't think these stay on catchup forever.

I have a question , did anyone use the PA system on the day? To me it would have been helpful to all concerned if the ground staff or police made announcements. I'm sure this must have happened but it wasn't mentioned in the programme ( unless I missed it).
Just curious to what was said and when because it seemed that large part of the stadium inside and outside didn't have a clue to what was going on. Surely they had stadium PA back then?!

Agree with everything you said here and on the previous post. Watched it with the wife, who although aware of the disaster had zero idea of the extent, and had always been fed the drunk fan line. She was in tears throughout and I couldn't believe quite the levels the police and authorities stooped to. That copper that met Scraton was so brave, especially given the culture back then.

It's not the end by a long way but a big step forward on a road many thought they would ever travel on. Let's hope following the verdict things can finally move on and the 96 get the justice they deserve

 

[Liverbirdie]

Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.

You need to watch it soon or record it as I don't think these stay on catchup forever.

I have a question , did anyone use the PA system on the day? To me it would have been helpful to all concerned if the ground staff or police made announcements. I'm sure this must have happened but it wasn't mentioned in the programme ( unless I missed it).
Just curious to what was said and when because it seemed that large part of the stadium inside and outside didn't have a clue to what was going on. Surely they had stadium PA back then?!

From what I remember, there was nothing, with regards to what was happening inside or outside the ground.

As we all said at the time, if they had announced that the kick off was being delayed 15-30 minutes, there wouldnt have been a problem, and if they had also shut off the tunnel and ferried fans around the side entrances to the terrace.

Only just over half the turnstiles were in use at our end, which also contributed to the crush outside, a major accident on the M62 etc

The only tannoy announcement I remember was the one to say that the game was cancelled, around about an hour after the fans first escaped the pens.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Agree with everything you said here and on the previous post. Watched it with the wife, who although aware of the disaster had zero idea of the extent, and had always been fed the drunk fan line. She was in tears throughout and I couldn't believe quite the levels the police and authorities stooped to. That copper that met Scraton was so brave, especially given the culture back then.

It's not the end by a long way but a big step forward on a road many thought they would ever travel on. Let's hope following the verdict things can finally move on and the 96 get the justice they deserve

This is why the truth was very important Homer, as sadly millions of people still think it was down to the fans, as they believe what the papers and authorities said.

 

[gmc40]

Well any doubters need to watch the programme and if they still have a different opinion afterwards then what can you do.

The sad thing is that some people don't want to watch it. These people aren't interested in what really happened, they are happy "having an opinion" on what they think happened regardless of the facts. Most reasonable people will watch the documentary or read up before commenting, others (who are luckily a very small minority) would prefer to retain their prejudices.

 

[Hobbit]

I find it very difficult to comment in this thread.

I will say what I said at the time. "Who decided to open the gates/turnstiles, coz it wasn't the Liverpool fans?"

And more recently, "Who covered it up?"

As a good catholic, "god bless and keep them safe."

Sorry, but its still too painful...

 

[sawtooth]

After some googling I got an answer of sorts about the use of the PA on the day.
What I read was that instructions were given (using PA) to the supporters at Leppings Lane to spread out/ go sideways presumably to fill the relative free space in the corner sections. Whoever said that could not have been aware that the crowd could not move left and right due to the high metal fences separating the sections behind the goal. The policeman in the programme who went into the crowd to help also mentioned that he wasn't aware of the fences until he saw that people could not move towards him.

Was there a lot mentioned in the inquest about this ? and why the PA wasn't used more effectively?

The PA ( you would think) should have been the best tool on the day to make everybody aware quickly inside and outside of the ground of the terrible tragedy unfolding.

 

[Liverbirdie]

After some googling I got an answer of sorts about the use of the PA on the day.
What I read was that instructions were given (using PA) to the supporters at Leppings Lane to spread out/ go sideways presumably to fill the relative free space in the corner sections. Whoever said that could not have been aware that the crowd could not move left and right due to the high metal fences separating the sections behind the goal. The policeman in the programme who went into the crowd to help also mentioned that he wasn't aware of the fences until he saw that people could not move towards him.

Was there a lot mentioned in the inquest about this ? and why the PA wasn't used more effectively?

The PA ( you would think) should have been the best tool on the day to make everybody aware quickly inside and outside of the ground of the terrible tragedy unfolding.

The main problem was that when they let the outside gate open, hundreds entered in a matter of minutes, and within 20 yards of the outside gate is the tunnel, so most headed for this onto an already crowded terrace. Only regular match-goers like myself knew that there were side entrances onto the terrace. If the police had put 6-8 police across the inner gate, telling people to go around, it wouldnt have been a problem. If Duckenfield had pre-warned the police in the inner courtyard to say, I'm opening the outer gate, shut off the tunnel (there may have also been closeable wooden doors, if I remember correctly) this wouldnt have happened. It really was that simple.

I was originally in the pen that most died in, but as I'd been in the seats above the previous year, I knew that the middle pen was overcrowded, so I went into the one next door this year, for some reason. I normally always went to the middle of an end in them days were all the singing was, but didnt this year.

As 3-4 other semis at that venue showed, it had happened before - the difference this time was that a few hundred being let in in one go caused the fatal crush.

The tannoys would have been too late, as people where already in by then.

 

[Foxholer]

...
The PA ( you would think) should have been the best tool on the day to make everybody aware quickly inside and outside of the ground of the terrible tragedy unfolding.

From my understanding (and it's nowhere near complete!) the lack of awareness (and possibly tactical failures when made aware) of exactly what was happening contributed significantly to the tragedy!

I have little doubt that there will be some reference to 'contributing actions' in the inquest text! Having spent such a long time getting to the bottom of it (I'm meaning the 2 years of actual recent inquest, not the 28 years between the tragedy and this inquest), I would hope it has been covered - and shouldn't need to be postulated about any more!

 

[sawtooth]

The main problem was that when they let the outside gate open, hundreds entered in a matter of minutes, and within 20 yards of the outside gate is the tunnel, so most headed for this onto an already crowded terrace. Only regular match-goers like myself knew that there were side entrances onto the terrace. If the police had put 6-8 police across the inner gate, telling people to go around, it wouldnt have been a problem. If Duckenfield had pre-warned the police in the inner courtyard to say, I'm opening the outer gate, shut off the tunnel (there may have also been closeable wooden doors, if I remember correctly) this wouldnt have happened. It really was that simple.

I was originally in the pen that most died in, but as I'd been in the seats above the previous year, I knew that the middle pen was overcrowded, so I went into the one next door this year, for some reason. I normally always went to the middle of an end in them days were all the singing was, but didnt this year.

As 3-4 other semis at that venue showed, it had happened before - the difference this time was that a few hundred being let in in one go caused the fatal crush.

The tannoys would have been too late, as people where already in by then.

Thanks Pete, this is obviously a difficult subject so please excuse the questioning especially as it has all been covered before.

Just cant comprehend why someone didn't pick up the tannoy mic and start pleading with fans to turnaround and walk away from the ground. I take your point that this may have come too late for many but listening to Motson talking over the pictures he and others seemed to know what was going on quite early on.

Beggars belief also that the police had no radios (or very few) so you would have thought if nothing else the tannoy would have helped coordinate their activities.

Don't feel obliged to comment any further but I am genuinely interested in knowing the ins and outs now as a result of watching the documentary.

I won't post on this thread again but if someone can just point me in the direction of the best information resources online then that will be that.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The reason why no one uses the PA system was because the person watching the CCTV was the same person who ordered the gate to open up and then covered it up . It was Duckenfield who wasn't fit to look after the policing for a football match - he froze , made the wrong choice then cowered away and blamed the fans. He failed to communicate to his officers.

Remember that up to about 15:20 maybe later the police were in the mind it was hooligans and a pitch invasion - no one was controlling the police so they just formed a cordon whilst fans did their work , same with the Ambulance Service.

When Duckenfield ordered the gate to be open - not one single person was directing the fans so they are just went straight for the middle two pens, which were already full - the PA system would have been no use because the damage was already done.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Thanks Pete, this is obviously a difficult subject so please excuse the questioning especially as it has all been covered before.

Just cant comprehend why someone didn't pick up the tannoy mic and start pleading with fans to turnaround and walk away from the ground. I take your point that this may have come too late for many but listening to Motson talking over the pictures he and others seemed to know what was going on quite early on.

Beggars belief also that the police had no radios (or very few) so you would have thought if nothing else the tannoy would have helped coordinate their activities.

Don't feel obliged to comment any further but I am genuinely interested in knowing the ins and outs now as a result of watching the documentary.

I won't post on this thread again but if someone can just point me in the direction of the best information resources online then that will be that.

The Hillsborough Independant Panel report is freely available online, Prof Scraton has a book out published in the late 90's and what he wrote then is what has been proved to be correct.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/news.s...-criminal-charges-against-six-people-10929606

At last a positive step towards people being made to be responsible for innocents dying

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Great news. I'll refrain from any more comment on this matter.

Here's the charges "Sir" Norman Bettison former Merseyside police chief will be facing.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on or before the 24th day of October 1998, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification, wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him, namely by untruthfully describing his role in the response of the South Yorkshire Police Force to the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster to Sir David O'Dowd as 'peripheral'.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on the 2nd day of November 1998, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification, wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him, namely by untruthfully asserting in a statement made to the Merseyside Police Authority that he had "never attempted to shift blame onto the shoulders of Liverpool supporters" for the Hillsborough Stadium disaster

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on or before the 13th day of September 2012, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him namely by causing, permitting or suffering a press release to be issued in his name which untruthfully asserted that he had "never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private" than that the behaviour of supporters of Liverpool Football Club had not caused the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE
MISCONDUCT IN A PUBLIC OFFICE
PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE
NORMAN GEORGE BETTISON, on or before the 14th day of September 2012, being a public officer and acting as such, namely a serving police officer, without reasonable excuse or justification wilfully misconducted himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in him namely by causing, permitting or suffering a press release to be issued in his name which untruthfully asserted he had never 'besmirched' supporters of Liverpool Football Club in relation to the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster.
(As a common law offence, this carries a maximum sentence of imprisonment for life).

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Today is a good day in the fight for justice for the 96.

God bless them and their families.

 

[IanM]

Being in my 50s I remember how appallingly football matches were policed in those days. You explain watching football from a cage to the modern Prem fan raised on all seated grounds they look at you bizarrely. I endured a few near misses myself in the 80s at several grounds...there for the grace of god....

.... the fight goes on for the families... but one step nearer

 

[Hobbit]

Today is a good day in the fight for justice for the 96.

God bless them and their families.

And long overdue.

Well done to all those in the fight for justice. The stamina and strength of character in the face of so much abuse is very humbling.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

So pleased for everyone that has been a long, arduous road to get justice for their lost ones. It won't replace the hurt and sense of loss but hopefully those that contributed to this shocking (and preventable) disaster are finally held accountable

 

[chrisd]

About time, I just hope it isn't too long before they appear in court

 

[ColchesterFC]

About time, I just hope it isn't too long before they appear in court

Five of the six will be appearing in front of magistrates court on 9th August. The other one (David Duckenfield the chief supt) isn't in court on that date. Not sure why, but possibly that with his charges including manslaughter it can't be dealt with at magistrates court and would need a higher court to preside.

 

[Papas1982]

Five of the six will be appearing in front of magistrates court on 9th August. The other one (David Duckenfield the chief supt) isn't in court on that date. Not sure why, but possibly that with his charges including manslaughter it can't be dealt with at magistrates court and would need a higher court to preside.

They covered this on sky.

He has been charged previously in a private pursuit of justice and the judge at the time (having been found innocent) ruled that he couldn't be retried. Currently the prosecution is getting that ruling quashed.